Can this fog film?

RattyMouse

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I am trying to hunt down the source of light that is fogging mostly the edges of my 120 roll film. Very very rarely the fog spills into the image area. Delta 3200 may be more susceptible to this fogging but I have not firm data to prove this.

I'm wondering if the "night light" in my dark room might be the source. The light switch in my closet has a thin strip of glow in the dark tape on it. There is certainly a glow when the lights are off but it is very very faint. I cannot see my hand in front of my face when in the dark room, but I can see this glow, about 2 feet away. I load my reels in this room, with my back to the light switch, but until this weekend, did not take particular care to keep the film out of line of sight of this glow in the dark strip. The strip is about 2-3mm wide and maybe 4-5 cm long.

Could this tiny bit of light be the source of my fog? When the film shows fog, it is not located only at the beginning or end of the roll, instead it is sporadic throughout the roll. My films always come out of the camera very tightly rolled.

Thank you for the help!
 

Xmas

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I remove my analogue tick tok watch and leave the floro light off for 15 minutes.
Cover the glow with black paper.
 

doughowk

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I have a CD/Radio/clock appliance hanging from an overhead shelf; and it definitely fogged some film. I put mylar over the florescent display, and drape a piece of cloth over it whenever loading/unloading film.
 

Neal

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Dear RattyMouse,

If it's only on the edges, it sounds more like the film is being fogged after removal from the camera and before loading onto developing reels. I try and keep my exposed rolls in a leftover bag from 4x5 sheet film in a pocket. There are several nice products around for film storage as well but I have never used them.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/112082-120-Film-Hard-Case-Black-Holds-5-rolls-of-120-size-film

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/8203814-Maco-120-Economy-Roll-Film-Container

Good luck,

Neal Wydra
 

scheimfluger_77

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You said it was mostly on the edges, could it be in-camera? I started getting this sporadically in my beloved C330. I started taping the light seals on the film door.

Steve
 

Gerald C Koch

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From you description it sounds like the backing paper is not making a good seal with the spool when you rewind the film. Sometimes a camera allows the film to wobble a bit and this damages the edges of the paper spoiling the seal. Next time save the paper and check for damage. This also happens when the roll is loaded or unloaded in bright light. After removal from the camera film should be placed in a light tight container or wrapped with black paper or aluminum foil. Don't just toss it in a camera bag.

Such things as luminescent tape, pilot lights, etc are really too dim to cause fogging unless the exposure is very long. I have used such tape all over a dark room without difficulty. But remember the inverse square rule and do not place film next to light sources. At a distance of a few feet there is no problem. Fluorescent lights sometimes have a long decay rate in their light output after being shut off. Thus can be a problem. Only incandescent bulbs should be used in the darkroom.

The human eye is far more sensitive than any film. As far as weak light sources, what we perceive as really bright is usually not seen by the film.

This problem really is not unusual for roll films. The last time I looked at the box instructions there was a warning to only load or unload film in subdued light. It is only when the fogging intrudes into the image area of the negative that it becomes serious.
 
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flavio81

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Gerald C Koch said:
Fluorescent lights sometimes have a long decay rate in their light output after being shut off. Thus can be a problem. Only incandescent bulbs should be used in the darkroom.
Click to expand...

Sounds logical. I learn something new every day. Thanks!
 
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RattyMouse

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Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I did try to cover this light awhile ago but the paper I put up over it fell off. I'll try again.

Since the fogging is throughout the film roll, I am assuming that it is happening either in camera (in which case I have no idea what to do), or during my time in the dark room. I'll work on the latter and see if that affects the problem.

Thanks again.
 

Maris

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Edge fogging of 120 film is nearly always caused by a "soft roll" when unloading the camera. Roll film backing paper only works well if it is wound tight. The camera feed spool should have some drag so that the take up spool has to work against some resistance.
 

Jim Noel

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It certainly sounds like problems loading and unloading the camera, particularly unloading. If the camera is not spooling it tightly is is the most likely cause. You can tighten this up by placing a small piece of foam between the supply roll and the edge of the camera. This will create drag causing it to be more difficult to wind the film, thus winding it tighter.
For those references to fluorescent lights. They have absolutely no place in a dark room. Ionce tested after they had been off for 30 minutes and fogging still occured with the film 6 feet away. That day I re-wired completely removing all fluorescents.
 
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RattyMouse

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Let me be clear. My film comes out of the camera wound perfectly tight. I could not ask at all for it to be tighter.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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If it's only the edges, then it's not something in the darkroom, and generally I wouldn't worry about phosphorescent objects, unless they get really close to the film. I've had such things in the darkroom for years.

Usually with 120/220 film, edge fog the result of exposure to bright light before or after loading. Best to load and unload in subdued light and put the film in an opaque bag after unloading.
 
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RattyMouse

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Can fog deep in the roll, like around images 5 or 6 happen during loading and unloading very tightly wound rolls?
 

David A. Goldfarb

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RattyMouse said:
Can fog deep in the roll, like around images 5 or 6 happen during loading and unloading very tightly wound rolls?
Click to expand...

Certainly. All it takes is for the edge of the spool to flex a bit. It could even be caused by extra-tight winding, or maybe if the takeup spool is slightly off center, causing the backing paper to skew to one side slightly.

It could also be a light leak from the edges of the camera back somewhere.

If it's something in the darkroom, when the film is unwound, then it wouldn't be limited to the edges of the film.
 
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RattyMouse

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Ok, I just thought of an idea. When I have time, I'll check my color film! I do not process any color film, instead sending that out to a lab. If the color films are totally fog free on the edges, that excludes it happening in camera then and would instead point the problem towards my handling. If the camera or film mechanism is the problem, then my color film should show the same edge fogging.

Stay tuned! Later tonight I hope to have a look.
 

BrianShaw

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There have been brands of film more prone to that then others. Bergger was notoious - really "leaky" backing paper. Never had an issue with Kodak or Ilford, but at 3200 it could be more susceptable than with slower films. I have no experience with that specific film, though.
 
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RattyMouse

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Checked my archives of color film today. Looked at about 15 different rolls of film. Reala, 400H, Provia 400X, and NONE of them show any edge fogging at all. Not even a hint of it. Only my self developed monochrome films have edge fogging.
 

Doremus Scudder

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RattyMouse said:
Checked my archives of color film today. Looked at about 15 different rolls of film. Reala, 400H, Provia 400X, and NONE of them show any edge fogging at all. Not even a hint of it. Only my self developed monochrome films have edge fogging.
Click to expand...

Darkening of edges that resembles fogging can be caused by physical damage as well, e.g., from rolling the film onto too-tight reels, or otherwise bending/flexing the edges (short spool, too-narrow reel, etc.). Maybe your problem is not fogging at all?

Try a test roll, clip off a length of the film and develop it without the reel and see if you have the edge marks. If not, then it's likely your reel or your reel-loading. If the foggging is still there, check take up reels. Since your color film is coming out fine, I'd imaging that the camera and take-up reels were fine, however.

Good luck diagnosing your problem,

Doremus
 
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RattyMouse

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Thank you for your VERY interesting reply. I can't do a test roll as you suggest because my fogging problem is not consistant at all. I'd have to test 5-10 rolls of film to get a feel for if your theory is correct. Still I find it very compelling. My camera has to be OK because my color films show perfect edges.

Here's a picture of my latest film that showed this problem. It's pretty light fogging/damage. 99% of the time if it shows up, it is nowhere near the image itself. Because of this, I'm not all that concerned about it.

 
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RattyMouse

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Now that I think more about this, a few of my Paterson reels show some light build up of a dark substances on them. The film is rubbing off onto my feels maybe?
 

NickLimegrove

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RattyMouse said:
Click to expand...

My films started looking ^similar after I moved into my new apartment. Took me about a year to find out what was going on. I was able to rule out processing problems, as self-developed and lab-developed films showed the same problem; film brand or type didn't make a difference; my like-new Bessa-R with light seals in perfect shape was affected just as much as my older cameras with rather cr*ppy ones. The day the whole problem disappeared was the day I decided to no longer store my (loaded) cameras on an open book shelf in my living room that's hit by direct sunlight from noon to sunset...
 
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pentaxuser

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I am not sure if I am seeing fogging streaks across the frame or not but the black "hills" on the very edge that look like a range of hills of varying height look exactly like the problem I have experienced with roll film that wasn't rolled tight enough.

You might not be concerned anymore if the "hills" are only on the edges of the film but one test might be to unload the film in total darkness and then place in a light-tight container and then processed in total darkness. If the problem is camera seals then the hills will still be there. If it is a post camera problem then the hills should have disappeared.

In suggesting this test I am assuming that when loading the film in only subdued light that the roll has been wound tight enough by the film maker at the factory to avoid any light ingress at the loading stage.

pentaxuser
 
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RattyMouse

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The problem is not camera seals as none of my color films ever show this kind of phenomena. I have shot many rolls of color negative film as well as positive and have never once seen fogging on the edges. The problem must start once the film is out of my camera and in my darkroom.

Thank you for your reply.
 
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