Can Speed Aero with rangefinder accurately focus for tight portraits?

[pchaps]

I am looking for a Speed Aero but was wondering about the focusing. If I want to shoot portraits, how close can I get for tightly framed shot (just face of subject in frame)? Also, can a calibrated rangefinder work at these distances? What about parallax affecting accurate framing. I need to use a rangefinder as I want to capture workers on work sites and work as fast as reasonable.

 

[jim10219]

I assume you're asking about a Speed Graphic with and Aero Ektar, right? If so, how close you can get will depend on which Aero Ektar you use. The rangefinder could be set up to work very accurately in the right conditions, but it may not work if you try to focus too close, use the wrong Aero Ektar, or use an incompatible rangefinder. So it all depends on the which of these things you're talking about.

And Parallax from what? Are you using the sports finder? The viewfinder attachment? You don't compose through the rangefinder. And these can have different amounts of parallax issues depending on which one you use and how you use them.

If my assumption about the gear is correct, really your best bet is to use the ground glass, as that will tell you everything you need to know. The rangefinder and sports/view finders are really made more for situations where you're not playing with the super shallow depth of field that the Aero Ektars are usually employed for. They only times I've seen people shoot Aero Ektars wide open (or near it) using a rangefinder and sports/veiw finder is for shooting subjects that are rather far off, like what David Burnett is famous for.

 

[pchaps]

Thanks, perhaps I need to shift my target to a Super D 4x5.

 

[EdSawyer]

I had a speed/aero combo for some number of years. I spent quite a good while getting the Kalart rangefinder perfectly calibrated to the AE. It took about 8 hrs to really dial that in. When done, it would focus accurately down to it's minimum distance (4 feet) wide-open.

Shooting it like that handheld was a challenge. The reason is the invariable change in lens-to-subject distance that comes from moving your eye from rangefinder to viewfinder when handholding, was enough to throw off the focus on the subject at f/2.5, and sometimes even at f/4. Sometimes it could be done, but sometimes not. I would usually stop down to at least f/4 (still ridiculously shallow) to combat this, and to smooth out the bokeh.

Additionally, the minimum focus with the rangefinder of 4' is not tight enough to compose a tight head-shot with this lens/camera combo. It's more like a loose-ish head-and-shoulders composition, almost just a waist-up framing, shooting in vertical orientation.

Probably a better choice for this type of work, would be one of the Graflex SLRs, like a Graflex RB Super D 4x5 with either the stock 190mm f/5.6 lens (a nice lens, smooth wide open with nice bokeh, and f/5.6 on 4x5 is still damn shallow for portraits), or with an alternative lens like the 8" f/2.9 Pentac. The AE won't work on these cameras at infinity without shortening the mirror. The AE on a 3x4 Super-D will focus to portrait distances, any further distance and the lens hits the mirror. It might be a workable combo, though limiting. The AE is pretty much a no-go on the 4x5 RB Super D though (focuses to maybe 2ft or something before hitting mirror).

 

[pchaps]

I am now researching online to see if anyone has mounted an Aero Ektar (7-inch) on a Super D (4x5). What fun!

 

[pchaps]

Thanks Ed,

Great to hear from you! That is excellent information. I know that you have rebuilt Speed - Aero (more than one of them in fact), and done intensive repairs.

Wondering what lens on a Super D 4x5 would work best for my hope to do tight portraits. Head and shoulders could be okay. Close would be frosting

I have so much HP5+ leftover in holders from HABS assignments and I always reload fresh film for each job, so I was thinking that I could do a personal B&W 4x5 portrait project!

Again, thanks for your most welcomed note!

Paul

I had a speed/aero combo for some number of years. I spent quite a good while getting the Kalart rangefinder perfectly calibrated to the AE. It took about 8 hrs to really dial that in. When done, it would focus accurately down to it's minimum distance (4 feet) wide-open.

Shooting it like that handheld was a challenge. The reason is the invariable change in lens-to-subject distance that comes from moving your eye from rangefinder to viewfinder when handholding, was enough to throw off the focus on the subject at f/2.5, and sometimes even at f/4. Sometimes it could be done, but sometimes not. I would usually stop down to at least f/4 (still ridiculously shallow) to combat this, and to smooth out the bokeh.

Additionally, the minimum focus with the rangefinder of 4' is not tight enough to compose a tight head-shot with this lens/camera combo. It's more like a loose-ish head-and-shoulders composition, almost just a waist-up framing, shooting in vertical orientation.

Probably a better choice for this type of work, would be one of the Graflex SLRs, like a Graflex RB Super D 4x5 with either the stock 190mm f/5.6 lens (a nice lens, smooth wide open with nice bokeh, and f/5.6 on 4x5 is still damn shallow for portraits), or with an alternative lens like the 8" f/2.9 Pentac. The AE won't work on these cameras at infinity without shortening the mirror. The AE on a 3x4 Super-D will focus to portrait distances, any further distance and the lens hits the mirror. It might be a workable combo, though limiting. The AE is pretty much a no-go on the 4x5 RB Super D though (focuses to maybe 2ft or something before hitting mirror).

 

[jim10219]

Most people say that 240mm is about the appropriate focal length for portraits on a 4x5. For tight headshots, I prefer something even longer that puts me about 12-15 feet back from the model which is about right for compression, in my opinion. The Speed Graphic's bellows extend a little over 12", so you usually need a telephoto lens if you go above 240mm to get it to focus at portrait distances. I don't know what the RB Super D's max bellows extension is, but I can't imagine it being much longer.

As for portrait lenses, there are a lot of options out there, especially if you don't mind cropping (which is one of the advantages to using such a large negative). One of the advantages to using a lens with a leaf shutter built in is it's a lot easier to sync it with a flash. There are several interesting options for this like the Schneider Xenotar 210/2.8 (very expensive), 150/2.8 (still expensive) or Tele-Xenar 360/5.5 (much more reasonable). There are also several more modern soft focus lenses, like the offerings from Fuji, or some older ones like the Verito. If you don't mind using natural or constant lights, or can rig something up to get a flash to work with a focal plane shutter, there are many barrel lenses out there to choose from, like the Petzvals and other aerial surveillance lenses (but make sure they will cover and are meant for visible light as some were only meant for IR and will have terrible chromatic aberration). And if you want to get even crazier than that, you could just hook up a single positive meniscus lens, from something like an old telephoto lens or projector, and just use that. You could even take a regular lens, like a Tessar, and slightly unscrew the front element to soften up the image a bit. Or you could just take a sharp portrait with a standard lens, or use the Scheimpflug principle to purposely throw parts of the image out of focus.

There are about a million ways to do it, and it all depends on exactly what you are trying to accomplish. And your budget of course. Because this stuff can get crazy expensive if you're not careful.

 

[EdSawyer]

hi Paul

it's a fun project, sounds like.

There are people that have put the AE on a RB 4x5 SuperD. To get to infinity (or any reasonable distance, really) you need to shorten the mirror. Max focus distance without hitting the mirror is quite short, really too short to be useful, I think. It's more usable on a 3x4 SuperD without hitting the mirror, but still pretty limited - but on that camera it will focus out to useful portrait distances. The longest focus distance without hitting mirror I found for the AE was on an Arca Reflex, there I can get it out to about head-and-shoulders composition at most (and closer of course).

really, the best/easiest option is an 8" f/2.9 pentac. It fits fine, lighter/cheaper/smaller than the AE, mounts without changes needed to the camera, slightly longer focal length but still just as fast/sharp, possibly slightly lower contrast, but condition matters a lot on these older lenses so a good pentac could better a poor AE in that regard.

-Ed

 

[pchaps]

I have a 150/5.6 Schneider SS.

Most people say that 240mm is about the appropriate focal length for portraits on a 4x5. For tight headshots, I prefer something even longer that puts me about 12-15 feet back from the model which is about right for compression, in my opinion. The Speed Graphic's bellows extend a little over 12", so you usually need a telephoto lens if you go above 240mm to get it to focus at portrait distances. I don't know what the RB Super D's max bellows extension is, but I can't imagine it being much longer.

As for portrait lenses, there are a lot of options out there, especially if you don't mind cropping (which is one of the advantages to using such a large negative). One of the advantages to using a lens with a leaf shutter built in is it's a lot easier to sync it with a flash. There are several interesting options for this like the Schneider Xenotar 210/2.8 (very expensive), 150/2.8 (still expensive) or Tele-Xenar 360/5.5 (much more reasonable). There are also several more modern soft focus lenses, like the offerings from Fuji, or some older ones like the Verito. If you don't mind using natural or constant lights, or can rig something up to get a flash to work with a focal plane shutter, there are many barrel lenses out there to choose from, like the Petzvals and other aerial surveillance lenses (but make sure they will cover and are meant for visible light as some were only meant for IR and will have terrible chromatic aberration). And if you want to get even crazier than that, you could just hook up a single positive meniscus lens, from something like an old telephoto lens or projector, and just use that. You could even take a regular lens, like a Tessar, and slightly unscrew the front element to soften up the image a bit. Or you could just take a sharp portrait with a standard lens, or use the Scheimpflug principle to purposely throw parts of the image out of focus.

There are about a million ways to do it, and it all depends on exactly what you are trying to accomplish. And your budget of course. Because this stuff can get crazy expensive if you're not careful.

 

[pchaps]

Ed, Thanks again for those C/Y to EF adapters! Nice quality.

I wondering what do you think would be a fair price for me to pay for a Super D with an Aero Ektar mounted on it? It doesnt need to me a museum piece, but functional. It replacing the stock lens (which I think was typically a Zeiss) with a 7-inch Aero Ektar a major project? (I have decent shop skills).

Going to read more about the Super D internal working. I'm assuming it has a mirror that swings out of the way? Tell me more - have you working on one?

Thanks, Paul

hi Paul

it's a fun project, sounds like.

There are people that have put the AE on a RB 4x5 SuperD. To get to infinity (or any reasonable distance, really) you need to shorten the mirror. Max focus distance without hitting the mirror is quite short, really too short to be useful, I think. It's more usable on a 3x4 SuperD without hitting the mirror, but still pretty limited - but on that camera it will focus out to useful portrait distances. The longest focus distance without hitting mirror I found for the AE was on an Arca Reflex, there I can get it out to about head-and-shoulders composition at most (and closer of course).

really, the best/easiest option is an 8" f/2.9 pentac. It fits fine, lighter/cheaper/smaller than the AE, mounts without changes needed to the camera, slightly longer focal length but still just as fast/sharp, possibly slightly lower contrast, but condition matters a lot on these older lenses so a good pentac could better a poor AE in that regard.

-Ed

 

[jim10219]

I have a 150/5.6 Schneider SS.

Obviously, that would work. But that's a "normal" focal length plasmat lens. You can certainly take nice portraits with it, but it won't give you that shallow depth of field like you would expect from and Aero Ektar, and it's a tad bit on the wide side. You could certainly try it as is, and you could remove the front (or rear) element and try it that way too. The plasmat lenses will work with only the front or rear half. You'll lose some aperture, but gain some focal length doing that. You'll also lose some of the corrections, making the lens act a bit softer. Anyway, since you already have the lens, it might be worth experimenting with to see if you like it.

In any case, a good portrait doesn't need a good lens. A good subject, good pose, good expression, good background, and good lighting are all far more important than what lens you use.

 

[shutterfinger]

Graflex SLR reflex cameras have a trapezoid mirror in a rectangular frame that is hinged at the rear of the view opening and sits at a 45° angle to the film plane for focusing. When released it swings up to parallel to the camera body out of the image path then releases the FPS when full up. The stock lens will be at infinity focus with the front standard fully retracted and just clears the mirror frame lip.
The Graflex SLR instruction manual is available at http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_8.html, Graflex.org helpboard Reflex Help section.
The brochure: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/graflex_16.html
The standard lens on the 4x5 Suer D is the 190mm KODAK Ektar with auto diaphragm feature.

 

[EdSawyer]

Shutterfinger covered the basics re: RB Graflex, mirror, etc.

Pricewise: Expect somewhere between $600 and $1600 for a 4x5 RB Super D, depending on condition, what's included, functionality, etc. Even really beat ones seem to fetch at least $500-600 these days. Mint is usually more like $1200-1500. Series-D or other series would be less $, but also older and potentially lesser condition. The main thing of concern in these is the shutter. Everything else is relatively easy to work on/replace/fabricate/etc.

A nice AE is usually $350-500, again condition matters a lot. Pentacs run from about $250 to 500, generally.

The Jolo lens board is the lens board to use for these, but I am not sure if they are still available or not, if so they are about $150-200. But fabricating a lens board is not too difficult, so maybe that's a wash price-wise.

Cutting down or replacing the mirror and it's frame so it clears the AE: that's some custom work, and neither trivial nor cheap probably. The camera internals need some modifying to make that work. Finding a new mirror is easy enough, firstsurfacemirror.com is where I got a replacement one for one of my SuperDs (just a stock replacement one). But shortening the mirror frame, adjusting things: that's all a fair bit of work. People here have done it, but it's not something that's real easy to explain, you have to sort of dig into it and figure it out as you go. Doing so also compromises the stock light-trap design of the RB, but depending on how you use it, shouldn't have a huge effect, since the focal plane shutter still prevents light from hitting the film. (The mirror acts as a light trap too in stock form, but not in shortened form.)

Pics of my SuperD projects (one 4x5 stock, one 4x5 modified, one 3x4 converted to 4x5):

http://edsawyer.com/lens/graflex_superD/

http://edsawyer.com/lens/graflex_superD_pentac_woody/

http://edsawyer.com/lens/graflex_superD_3x4/

Glad the CY/Eos adapter is working out well for you too!

-Ed

 

[ic-racer]

I am looking for a Speed Aero but was wondering about the focusing. If I want to shoot portraits, how close can I get for tightly framed shot (just face of subject in frame)? Also, can a calibrated rangefinder work at these distances? What about parallax affecting accurate framing. I need to use a rangefinder as I want to capture workers on work sites and work as fast as reasonable.

You can't shoot some portraits with the lens you have now and see how easy/hard it is to focus on a head-shot with a string, rangefinder, ground glass, etc? I can't imagine starting a field project with not being thoroughly familiar with the equipment.

 

[pchaps]

Ed,

Beautiful work as always! I am viewing the pics now. Love that Super-D 4x5 [drooling :-]

Thanks for sharing your gallery folders. Truly remarkable work!

Paul

Shutterfinger covered the basics re: RB Graflex, mirror, etc.

Pricewise: Expect somewhere between $600 and $1600 for a 4x5 RB Super D, depending on condition, what's included, functionality, etc. Even really beat ones seem to fetch at least $500-600 these days. Mint is usually more like $1200-1500. Series-D or other series would be less $, but also older and potentially lesser condition. The main thing of concern in these is the shutter. Everything else is relatively easy to work on/replace/fabricate/etc.

A nice AE is usually $350-500, again condition matters a lot. Pentacs run from about $250 to 500, generally.

The Jolo lens board is the lens board to use for these, but I am not sure if they are still available or not, if so they are about $150-200. But fabricating a lens board is not too difficult, so maybe that's a wash price-wise.

Cutting down or replacing the mirror and it's frame so it clears the AE: that's some custom work, and neither trivial nor cheap probably. The camera internals need some modifying to make that work. Finding a new mirror is easy enough, firstsurfacemirror.com is where I got a replacement one for one of my SuperDs (just a stock replacement one). But shortening the mirror frame, adjusting things: that's all a fair bit of work. People here have done it, but it's not something that's real easy to explain, you have to sort of dig into it and figure it out as you go. Doing so also compromises the stock light-trap design of the RB, but depending on how you use it, shouldn't have a huge effect, since the focal plane shutter still prevents light from hitting the film. (The mirror acts as a light trap too in stock form, but not in shortened form.)

Pics of my SuperD projects (one 4x5 stock, one 4x5 modified, one 3x4 converted to 4x5):

http://edsawyer.com/lens/graflex_superD/

http://edsawyer.com/lens/graflex_superD_pentac_woody/

http://edsawyer.com/lens/graflex_superD_3x4/

Glad the CY/Eos adapter is working out well for you too!

-Ed

 

[shutterfinger]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1sPJkp-MdghRkRId1EwT0dpNkk/view?usp=sharing
Graflex Shutter Servicing Instructions. It will tell you whats involved in shorting the mirror. The mirror shaft is rotated by the H lever on the winding assembly. The mirror frame has a light tight cloth that blocks light from the view opening getting into the top shutter curtain roller chamber which could fog film. The mirror will not be removable from the body until the shutter and image box frame are removed then it slides out the back of the body. The set position clip and shutter release also catch on the front lip of the mirror frame so they will have to be modified when shortening the mirror frame which is aluminum.

 

[pchaps]

Thanks for the shutter servicing instructions. I am learning more about the Graflex SLR 4x5 cameras. I believe that I do not need the aperture stop-down of the "Super" as I will tend to shoot wide open. Let me know if I am understanding that correctly. Therefore, I am widening my search to include the other Graflex and hoping for a smooth operating shutter! I am realizing that these beasts were very innovative.

Ed, would a RB work for me as well?

Paul

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1sPJkp-MdghRkRId1EwT0dpNkk/view?usp=sharing
Graflex Shutter Servicing Instructions. It will tell you whats involved in shorting the mirror. The mirror shaft is rotated by the H lever on the winding assembly. The mirror frame has a light tight cloth that blocks light from the view opening getting into the top shutter curtain roller chamber which could fog film. The mirror will not be removable from the body until the shutter and image box frame are removed then it slides out the back of the body. The set position clip and shutter release also catch on the front lip of the mirror frame so they will have to be modified when shortening the mirror frame which is aluminum.

 

[EdSawyer]

Paul, thanks for the kind words.

Shutterfinger, thanks for posting that service instructions!

Paul, they are all of the RB family. (B, C, D, Super-D, Home Portrait, etc.). The Super-D stop-down feature only works on the stock lens, (190mm ektar in this case). It is a cool feature, no doubt. But, it only works with that specific lens/board. Any faster/different lenses would need to be stopped down to working aperture manually. Wide open is fun but best results for sharpness and bokeh are usually at least one stop down... I usually shoot the xenotar/AE/pentacs around f/4.

The main advantages of the Super-D, besides the auto-stop-down feature, are: Fresnel viewing screen/ground glass, first-surface mirror, and they are the most recent models thus have the best chance of having a shutter curtain in good condition.

-Ed

 

[shutterfinger]

RB stands for Revolving Back. The biggest failure is the tension spring looses its tension and speeds run slower than they should. I have improved some shutters by heat treating the tension spring as one would when making a new spring. I;m not in a position to work on cameras but have considered making new shutter tension spring for badly worn ones.
The Auto Graflex has the most bellows extension and can do 1:1 with stock lens.
The Series B has a small fixed lens mount making changing lens limited.
The Series C is a 3 1/4 X 4 1/4 format only with a Cooke lens in magnesium barrel.
The Series D has interchangeable lens boards making lens changing easier.
The Super D is an improved Series D.
The Telescopic Graflex is similar to the series D but was discontinued in 1922 and replaced with the Series B.