Can someone help my Nikon FE come back to life? Shutter speed trouble

[chat_rose]

Hi everyone,

I'm quite new to the analog scene and I've been wanting to use my parent's Nikon FE SLR camera that was boxed with some nice Nikkor 50mm 1.4 and a 135mm 3.5 lenses for a few decades. Sadly, the shutter speed appears to be all mixed up for anything over 1/125 of a second. The body is in perfect condition, but I believe the electronic is having some issues (battery check lights up and I put some new batteries).

When I'm shooting I think the intergrated light-meter is indicating a correct shutter speed but as I said previously for anything over 1/125 the real shutter speed I get is very wrong, for example for 1/60s I get over 2 sec... so no need to say my pictures will be well overexposed ! At first I thought it was some kind of old oil in the mechanism and I tried several times to go from 1/1000s to the maximum 8s shutter speed to "clean" it but it didn't change a thing. Nevertheless, one time while shooting the camera at the sky I did have correct shutter speed on the whole range (I can't be 100% sure but 1,2,4 and 8s where correct at least, and the 1/x where indeed the double of each ones like when going from 1/1000 to 1/500 to 1/...)

I went to an analog photography shop (who saddly didn't do repairs) here in France and the guys told me it might be a faulty capacitor on the electronic board. After checking the Nikon FE repair manual at page 86 (click here) the trouble "incorrect shutter speed" refers to either a defective shutter or electrical circuit trouble.

I read online that this body is kind of considered "disposable" when it faces this kind of trouble because the repair would be too expensive but having a really stubborn repair-man like mindset I want to save it because it has some history (they bought it in Japan while traveling and it documented my whole youth).

#1 The "go ahead buddy you can do it" situation:
Being quite good with my hands I think I can handle a complete disassembly but how will I test the circuit in order to find what is going wrong with it? The repair would require me to unsolder a component and replace it with something new but do you think I can still buy that kind of capacitor? Can you recommend a good oil to do the mechanism too? Do you have any advices?

#2 The "it's a dead end buddy" situation:
What body should I buy? If I want to use my lenses my last resort would be to buy either a Nikon FM or FM2 or FM3a (because I wouldn't want to bother with something needing electronic to function...) but which one should I get and at what price?

Thanks in advance to everyone who will try and help me !

 

[reddesert]

Don't start taking it apart yet. It's very complex and there is not enough information to know where the fault might be. Often when something goes wrong, people who have a little but not a lot of experience with electronics say "It must be a bad capacitor," but (except for certain cameras where capacitors are a known issue), it's often something else.

From your description, I'm not even sure if the fault is occurring when shooting the camera in manual or auto mode. You mentioned turning the dial from 8s to 1/1000, which would be in manual mode, but you also mentioned that the camera's lightmeter indicates a correct shutter speed, and the meter only controls the speed in auto mode. In manual mode, the meter is merely giving advice.

 

[chat_rose]

Yes I'm not messing up inside the camera without knowing where I'm going. The fault is occurring both in manual mode (when I select myself the shutter speed) and in mode "auto" (but this time it started at 1/15s which was like 4-5s in real). I did talk about the light meter because it's also part of the electronic board and it seems like it's working correctly. The problem is I don't have an analog camera repair guy in my area and I believe it's going to be too expensive.

I didn't mention that I know how to solder properly (SMD),also I did dozens of electronic devices unit replacements but I'm not familiar with testing a board (I can always learn with good material and advices). So what should I do?

 

[mawz]

This is more likely a shutter issue than anything else given it's happening in both manual and automatic modes. The fact you're getting good metering says that the shutter selection isn't the issue.
The shutter on the FE is electronically timed and it sounds like the timing is not working correctly.
you certainly can attempt to repair, but it is a crapshoot. There's a high likelihood that any failed component you identify will no longer be obtainable without buying another FE.

As to which body to buy as a replacement, my suggestion is an FM if you use non-AI lenses and an FM2 variant if all your lenses are AI or later. The FM3a is just a really expensive FE2 with a few minor changes and a shutter that works mechanically or electronically, it's an FM body in name only (the UI is 100% FE, not FM). If you want a cool FM2 varian, get an FM2/T rather than an FM3a, you'll get a cooler looking body that's equally collectible and has less electronics.

 

[BrianShaw]

Nikons have a weakness that can cause wonky exposure. Not a capacitor but a variable resistor. Look up FRE in the manual. It is under the ASA dial. If it’s broken that will be a bad situation; if the circuit board is bad that will be a bad situation also. Try moving the ASA dial through its full range a couple of times. Then try your shutter speeds again. Hopefully...

 

[reddesert]

The FRE governs the operation of the meter. Thus it affects the shutter in auto mode, but not in manual mode.

If the shutter isn't firing on the correct time in manual mode it's not the FRE. The unusual thing is if some of the speeds are correct but some of them take much too long. Since it's electronically timed there aren't two separate timing mechs like a mechanical shutter.

OP can you clarify which speeds are correct and which are wrong? In your first post you said "speeds over 1/125" are wrong, which I thought meant the fast speeds, but now I think you meant the slow speeds.

I know you said you tried new batteries, but also try cleaning the battery contacts and putting in really new batteries, tested with a voltmeter.

 

[shutterfinger]

There are some FE service articles at https://learncamerarepair.com/productlist.php?category=2&secondary=8
Have you tried more than one lens? On the rear of the lens is a lever on the right that moves through a slot in the mount/housing. This is the aperture operating lever. The aperture operating lever should move freely throughout the movement range. Examine the aperture blades for traces of oil. Do this for all lens. Inspect the body for the aperture coupling moving freely.
Electronically controlled shutters use multiple contacts on the shutter release switch to operate the electronics. The brass contacts will tarnish with age, they likely need cleaning. The shutter curtains are released by solenoids which may be dirty, corroded, or dry and sticking causing the erroneous shutter speeds.
You can safely remove the base plate of the body and inspect the mechanical parts there and the battery wiring.
Here in the States I use TriFlow for lubing cameras. https://www.amazon.com/Tri-Flow-Squ...qid=1618715857&sprefix=triflow,aps,247&sr=8-7 , clock oil works well also, for grease I use https://www.amazon.com/Finish-Line-...618715922&sprefix=finish+line+,aps,256&sr=8-1 . I use CRC Quick Dry Electronic Cleaner for cleaning. https://www.crcindustries.com/products/qd-174-electronic-cleaner-11-wt-oz.html
For electronic components I use https://www.mouser.com/
Hopefully the links work in your part of the world and you can find similar if needed.

 

[mooseontheloose]

You might want to take a look at Richard Haw's blog - he's got a post about repairing a Nikon FE that you might find helpful: click

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

The #1, #2 and #3 problem in any battery powered system, like the FE, is the battery.

Many is the time I have told myself "Oh, it can't be the battery - I cleaned the contacts and the battery checks good." And after a lot of tinkering, lo a behold I clean the battery contacts one more time and put in a brand new battery and the whole thing comes to life. And I feel silly for spending three hours tinkering with it and taking off all sorts of covers and poking into places I have no business being.

Clean the battery contacts with a little bit of *very* fine sandpaper, yet again if need be. You can also use a pencil eraser for cleaning. Wet the eraser in vinegar - the chemicals that cause battery corrosion are alkaline ("alkaline battery" ...). Be careful not to over-stress the spring contact at the base of the battery compartment. Then get another set of new batteries from the store.

Your camera is in like new shape so the chances of anything being worn-out or covered in dirt are slim. If it's not battery issues then it is probably hardened grease or oil. I would keep exercising the shutter speed dial, the ASA dial and the lens aperture - back and forth, back and forth. Quite often this will get a Nikon's electronics going again.

It is probably not a bad capacitor. There was a plague of bad aluminum electrolytic capacitors in the late 80's and early 90's in consumer electronics - TVs, stereos, some computers. Capacitors before that time were very reliable. Your camera uses tantalum capacitors and the chance of a leaking capacitor are slim. You need a lot of practice and the correct equipment before doing any component level repair on surface mount components, especially if they are on flex circuit boards.

There are a few engineering adages: the old "Don't fix it if it isn't broken"; and "If you fix anything long enough you will really break it."

Instructions for fixing the camera can be found several places, another is at https://learncamerarepair.com/productlist.php?category=2&secondary=8; the factory manuals however, aren't a great help as they are guides for factory trained repair technicians and list of spare parts (from the time you could order them from Nikon). For a guide to doing a partial strip down see https://learncamerarepair.com/downloads/pdf/Pate-Nikon-FE-FRE.pdf

 

[chat_rose]

Thanks to Mawz, Brianshaw, Reddesert, Shutterfinger, Mooseontheloose and Nicolas Lindan for your contribution. I'll try to give clear information about my issue here.

Indeed the issue is happening in both manual or auto mode and in the same manner, under 1/125 speeds seems good and over 1/125 they are wrong. When I've said the speeds are wrong "over" 1/125 I meant for longer shutter speeds such as 1/60, 1/30, 1/15 etc (because 1/60th is over/bigger than 1/125th of a second). I assume correct speeds are 1/1000, 1/500 and 1/250 because 1/125 is already being different from one shot to another.

I don't think that the FRE variable resistor is faulty here because when I move the ASA dial I can clearly see the light-meter indicator moving too while shooting. I've tried moving it a couple of time back and forth but I still get the same matching issue with the shutter speed dial selection. I've also tried cleaning the battery bay with no visible changes. I might need to get my hands on a voltmeter to be 100% sure but the batteries are new from last week.

I've tried with my 2 available AI lenses: the 50mm 1.4 and the 135mm 3.5 but it's the same story. I don't see any oil marks on the aperture blades of both lenses. Thanks for the multiple links for lubricants, grease, disassembly tutorials etc.

Concerning the batteries, again they are new. I will purchase another set of 4* LR44 1,5V tomorrow to try it out but even if it's a battery issue then I'll need to understand why it's happening. It would mean that the camera is draining all the power of the batteries in a matter of minutes/hours (which is a big issue too). I did try with a new set of LR44 and it had the same issue so I don't think it comes down to that but who knows...

I wanted to time the real shutter speeds I get when I'm over 1/125s but it's so versatile, for example sometimes I get 2-3s for 1/60 and sometimes it's even a full minute. Finally, I had some cases where the shutter action wouldn't "finish" so I had to select "M90" to finish it myself. At the end of my attempts even selecting "M90" or "B" wouldn't finish it (but it magically came back a few minutes after) so now I'm a bit nervous every time I click the shutter.

Here is a video of me playing with the Nikkon FE to show how it is with your own eyes and hears (set-up was ISO 400, aperture 2.8 and white cloudy day interior shooting):

 

[perkeleellinen]

I had this exact problem with my FM2 about ten years ago, it was caused by a lose part in the shutter. I sent it off for repair. See post #16 of my thread here:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/problem-with-my-fm2.82032/

 

[shutterfinger]

Shutter speeds are refereed to by the time the shutter is/should be open not the fraction on the speed dial.
1/60 is longer than 1/125 which is longer than 1/250.
Time to find a good repair shop in your area.

 

[Autonerd]

I had a Nikon FE with shutter timing problems. Repair cost was about $100 which included a CLA. I thought it was worth it... although I am not so sure since somethign else on the FE has broken and I don't want to put more money into it. (Personally I think the FE is overrated.)

 

[Arvee]

Likely a problem in the timing circuit. The shutter speed dial and the ISO dial are variable resistive elements. They change value with wipers made of copper which will oxidize over time and not make good contact with the ring resistor. The previous advice to exercise the ISO dial and shutter speed dial is good; I would run them each through 50 end to end cycles to refresh the wiper contact.

The timing circuit which pairs a capacitor with these resistive elements to provide an appropriate time constant is usually divided: one smaller value capacitor for the higher shutter speeds and a larger capacitor is needed to create the longer time constant for the slow speeds. The usual break is at 1/125 second; the larger capacitor coming into play below 1/125. If the slow speeds are way too long that tells me that either the slow speed capacitor is defective or the switching which pairs the slow speed capacitor to the resistive elements is not operating correctly.

The fact that the high speeds work correctly tells me the shutter (mechanically) is working fine.

If the cap is bad, then the only option is to have it replaced. If the problem is mechanical switching in the timing circuit that may be an oxidized switch contact which may recover with exercise/use. If the circuitry uses logic to accomplish the switching then that may be an electrical problem that will have to be repaired.

I think you said that the camera did operate properly on occasion; that would indicate to me that the cap is probably okay and it is most likely a dirty switch contact or an intermittent logic switch/cold solder joint.

Just my .02 worth based on your description of the problem; good luck getting it back online....

 

[chat_rose]

Thanks to Perkeleellinen, Autonerd and Arvee for adding to this topic - it's such a wonderful forum here !

So a similar problem with a FM2 would indicate a mechanical issue. Sadly your post doesn't give detailed information about which part was loose. I did try to unscrew the bottom plate to check but I didn't really know what to look after... IMO everything seemed to be correct down there.

For the $100 repair + CLA on the FE do you know more precisely what was the issue? Saddly I don't think I could be able to find a repair guy in France for such an honest amount... and then maybe it wouldn't be worth it so should I buy another body?

The last contribution is really interesting. I did the 50 back and forth without solving my issue (still it gave me some hope). To be honest, the ASA/ISO dial was quite rough at the beginning and it became a lot smoother after that operation, nevertheless, I didn't see a change in the speed dial smoothness. Looking at how it's only happening for speeds slower than 1/125 (included) I'm beginning to think the larger capacitor is at fault here.
If I understand well it could also be an oxidized mechanical switching in the timing circuit or an electrical problem. The camera did once work on the full speed range, I can confidently say that because each longer speed was approximately double from the precedent, and for 1, 2, 4, and 8 full seconds I was counting in parallel to check these speeds. The previous disassembly guides linked seem enough for me to try it out and look at the timing circuit board but I would first need to understand exactly what I'm looking after.

 

[shutterfinger]

The previous disassembly guides linked seem enough for me to try it out and look at the timing circuit board but I would first need to understand exactly what I'm looking after.

The shutter accuracy setting procedure begins on pdf page 78 of the service manual you linked to in your initial post.
Please post a picture of the battery cap battery side and the threads of the cap and the bottom of the camera with the base plate removed.

 

[chat_rose]

Thanks, I read the procedure which seems doable but I'm missing some tools such as "Shutter tester J190022-1" (maybe I can somehow use a hack or buy a cheap tool somewhere) and "Special top cover for brightness adjustment J15145" (I'm not sure if it's necessary). There is something I don't really understand, like for example, EV14 stands for Exposure Value 14 but how do you read this value?

Here are the pictures:

 

[chat_rose]

And the bottom of the camera without base plate. Don't hesitate to ask me macro pictures if needed. I can also make videos in macro. I so much wish I could solve this issue and go out shooting some Hilford with the 50mm 1.4 lense...

 

[chat_rose]

Last picture:

 

[shutterfinger]

While I'm aware that digital cameras pick up more dust than you see with the eye there is light corrosion all along the the edge of the camera body, the battery holder threads and the battery socket threads. Use a standard toothbrush and clean the edge of the body where the base plate fits onto it. Take a scotchbrite pad, green or red, and clean the threads of the battery socket and holder and the base plate internal edges.
Now take your VOM and measure the resistance from the threaded area of the socket to the top cover on the lowest ohms setting of the meter. It should be less than 10 ohms.
The motor drive socket contacts have some tarnish. The motor drive contacts have a make/break contacts that disconnects the camera battery when a motor drive is connected. You may need to take the MD socket apart and clean the contacts. Do not loose the springs inside the MD socket or bend the pins. A good metal polish will be fine for cleaning the contacts..

As for EV

 

[Autonerd]

For the $100 repair + CLA on the FE do you know more precisely what was the issue? Saddly I don't think I could be able to find a repair guy in France for such an honest amount... and then maybe it wouldn't be worth it so should I buy another body?

Unfortunately I did not ask what the fix was. I think the labor rate was so reasonable because he already had the camera apart so most of the labor in the CLA was redundant with the repair. Also, I imagine timing an electronic shutter is an easy job.

Here's the way I look at it: If you get the camera working, you'll have an FE that should serve you well for the next 10-20 years. A working FE goes for, what, $150? $200? So putting some $$ into it isn't a bad investment.

Of course, now something else is broken on my FE! If it was my only camera, I would likely be willing to put another hundred bucks into it to get it working. As it happens, I have plenty of film cameras (and more Pentax than Nikon lenses) so I don't rely on the FE. It's a nice enough camera, but not one of my favorites. If my Pentax ME Super died, I'd consider repair. If my Ricoh KR-10 died, I'd be more likely to replace it.

Aaron

 

[threebythree]

Hi chat_rose,

I'm having exactly the same problem with my Nikon FE - did you ever find a solution?

Many thanks

 

[nicholasnicholas]

Hi, similar over here with a new to me FE.

The shutter sticks for the first shot if it hasn't been used for a day or two. Manual or AUTO. When pressing the shutter, the mirror will flip up and the shutter stays closed (meter & battery check are normal). After releasing the mirror using the M90 or B, it goes normal and shutter fires at all speeds, but then the same thing will happen again if I stopped using the camera for awhile.

I've replaced fresh batteries and tried cleaning the battery holder with alcohol etc, none of them resolve the problem.

Oddly enough an F3 I have does the same!

 

[ic-racer]

I came upon some NOS PC boards I thought I'd use to repair some electronic cameras with good mechanics, but faulty electronics.
Took about 4 hours to replace each board, start-to-finish. Needed to do some back-and-forth replacements to diagnose what was wrong.

In the end, the NOS PC boards had some of the same faults as the cameras. Likely deterioration of some components due to age (no, there were no electrolytics).

In the end I suspect some (many) electronic cameras will just fade away without any hope of resurrection.

 

[4season]

I came upon some NOS PC boards I thought I'd use to repair some electronic cameras with good mechanics, but faulty electronics.
Took about 4 hours to replace each board, start-to-finish. Needed to do some back-and-forth replacements to diagnose what was wrong.

In the end, the NOS PC boards had some of the same faults as the cameras. Likely deterioration of some components due to age (no, there were no electrolytics).

In the end I suspect some (many) electronic cameras will just fade away without any hope of resurrection.

View attachment 343179

Is the mechanical 1/90th second shutter speed functioning?

Also, do you have any clearer photos of the PC boards which allow for parts identification? Tantalum capacitors are also known to fail. And yours appears to have some blue-dipped devices which might worth a closer examination. Best case scenario is that you got multiple lifetime's worth of good NOS spares that just need a bit of reworking.