Can photographic "vision" be taught?

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RAP

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Could not have said it better. I gave a talk to a camera club decages ago about the zone system. They listened attentively. The work I saw was mostly gimmicks, tricks. I happend upon a community center where some members were showing work last year. Same old stuff, gimmicks and tricks, not very well done.

If your looking for drinking buddies to hash out the latest on cameras, filters and film, join up. You'll learn more about good beer then good photography.
 

Les McLean

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Michael A. Smith said:
I cannot imagine anyone who partakes of a discussion group like this having even the slighest interest in camera clubs, but if you do, lose that interest as fast as you can. Camera club members will do their best to kill the creative spirit in you.


Michael A. Smith

Whilst I agree that Camera Clubs are responsible for some hackneyed gimmicky work I think your comment is unkind and unfeeling toward many people who attend clubs and enjoy what they do. I'm quite certain that there are many who contribute to this forum also attend club meetings. I think you are wrong to judge all clubs on the basis visiting one club. Two of the best photographers ever IMO, started their photography in Camera Clubs, one was Harry Callahan and the second was Charles Harbut and it didn't ruin them forever.
 

Jorge

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Well, my experience with a camera club was different. When I lived in Houston I joined the Texas Center for photography, now defunct for some rather silly things, but at the time it was a club and gallery. We had shows by John Charles Woods etc, etc. The juried competitions were judged by the director of the Houston Museum of fine arts and by people like Judy Watiss, founder of Photo Fest, people who certainly knew what photography is about. Not all clubs are alike and some can certainly provide a lot of info and can be a source of inspiration.
 

Michael A. Smith

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Well, there are camera clubs and there are camera clubs. (By the way, I know of a number of others besides the one I mentioned above.) The ones I was referring to have members who do not know the History of Photography and further, have no interest in it. And they have these silly "competitions" and "judging." The members may have a good time and enjoy it, but it has nothing to do with art. Maybe I'm wrong and way off base here, but I assumed that this forum was ultimately concerned with photographs as art--not that every member or contributor was necessarily, but that, by and large, that is what it is about. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The "camera club" in Houston was a camera club of a different order altogether.

Harry Callahan and Charles Harbutt escaped. It can happen.

Michael A. Smith
 

Ed Sukach

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Michael A. Smith said:
Maybe I'm wrong and way off base here, but I assumed that this forum was ultimately concerned with photographs as art--not that every member or contributor was necessarily, but that, by and large, that is what it is about. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Michael A. Smith

No you are not "wrong". I am here for just that ... the appreciation of photography as art.

There are a whole lot of Camera Clubs out there. Adams and Weston and Imogene Cunningham and Paul Strand belonged to a group called f/64 at one time. That group fell apart rather quickly - and I think the reason was the individuality of each of the members - and the fact that they didn't NEED anyone to stroke their egos and fawn all over them in syrupy adulation. They respected each other immensly, although they certainly disagreed with one another at times.
Hmm ... do I sense a parallel between these guys and the members of APUG?

So ... WHY belong to a camera club? The social interaction is good, but most of those I know about certainly do NOT teach anything. If one is looking for a way to "cheat" into a positon of respect ... I don't know ... they may succeed in some small amount among a certain clique, but that will be artificial, and to be not worth the abandonment of one's individuality.

Judging ... I've never seen any that I could call "coherent" at any level. I've seen work that was awarded `Best In Show' rejected out of hand - pre-judged "Not Good Enough to Be Even Condsidered For a Prize" in a juried show two weeks later. I remember one winner - chosen, according to the explanation of the judge, as "Outstanding, because it did not lose much detail in enlarging."

It is a little known fact that there are databases for sale out there that track "Judges" - and correlate their choices by subject, style, strange idiosyncrasies, - whatever - and improve the chances of those submitting by following those statistics. If the judge of a particular competition has a history of awarding prizes to "large black and white flower" photographs ... the show will be largely populated by - large, black and white ..etc.

The next time you see a juried show, consider their apllication. It usually delineates the size and weight limits of the submitted items. There may be some critreria defining a subject (one topic I remember was "Peace" - there were not many entries - I don't think many of us have photographs that will "fit" - I don't, especially). Then - the boilerplate: "Judging will be based on Artistic Merit and Originality." Artistic Merit ... I cannot argue one way or the other there - but "originality" is one all-time huge lie. I've yet to see anything winning that I could remotely call original. It is conform or die.

Hah!! "Original" - I could show them "original" photographs.....
 

Donald Miller

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Michael and Ed,
My experience parallels yours insofar as camera clubs are concerned. (having been involved in two. In restrospect that was two too many in my time around). What I found in each case was that there were those who were the so called "gurus" and the rest who tried their utmost to emulate those so called "gurus". I saw nothing of note in originality (heaven help those who started out with that impetus, because they were soon brought to a point of accomodation or they left the club). Perhaps that is what Michael meant by the "escapees".
 

Ed Sukach

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"Can Vision be *Taught*?

In thinking about this while waiting for the temeperature in the JOBO to stablize, I was brought back to a certain incident, many moons ago, in a "Juried" Art Competition. The girl who won "best in show" had submitted two pieces - the winner was a very large black and white acrylic painting of girl on a swing. A well -deserved award, in this case.

Her second entry was curious - a more or less ordinary table lamp with an octagonal shade. On each panel of the shade there was a sort of "snapshot" of a young girl, in a semi-formal dress - all images were the same. No one was really moved by this piece - so it sat on a table - and received very little attention, and no award. My role in that exhibition was that of "hanger" - a member of the crew placing the flat art onto the walls, the statuary on pedestals....
We were "breaking down" at the end of the show ... and I stared at that lamp. There was an electric cord (of course - it's a LAMP), but no one had bothered to plug it in. I did, and turned the lamp on.

The effect was shattering. Shining through each panel (each held a black and white transparency - overwhelming the surface image) was a different image: A dark figure fleeing; a photograph of a dead body in a marsh; a pretty young girl on a swing; the girl with her Prom partner; and a headstone in a cemetary... The whole seemed to be a sequence of a murder.
I was "hammered" by an intense wave of sympathy for the girl - and desire to know more about the situation - who she was - what happend.
That one piece probably had more of an effect on my "experience bank" than any other I have seen anywhere (and I've seen a few).

... And ignored widely, because NO one had taken a simple, logical step - consider the intrinsic nature of the media - and turn the lamp ON.

I think that is a what we should do - and something close to what Michael Smith is driving at ... Consider the "space" around us - in this case the cord, plug and socket - and use the information in our expressions - our art.... literally, turn the lamp ON.
 

SteveGangi

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Thanks for all the info in your replies. Since I have no interest in pandering to some "local guru", or conforming to any rules but my own, I decided not to check out or join any clubs. I liked the comment about learning about beer there, but for that I am already well "educated" (belch). I hope you all had a good weekend, be it Independence Day or Canada Day, or just a plain old weekend.
 

RAP

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Turn on the lamp? I wish it was all that easy. Though Mike did say something to the effect of his taking pictures, solely to please himself. If somebody else likes the image, so much the better. If someone likes it enough to pay money for it, that would be the ultimate compliment.

As for camera clubs, they are not the place to go to learn about serious photography. If you are really serious, I would be hard pressed to recommend where to go to learn. RIT would be the place if you want to learn about commercial work. Workshops by sucessful artists such as Barnbaum, Sexton, maybe Michael and Paula are a source.

35mm is not the camera to start out with. For the serious student, a basic 4x5 view camera system is essential. Learning the nuts and bolts, how to see photographically, how to translate the 3d reality onto the 2d ground glass. You cannot learn these things with the small 35mm frame or a camera club.
 

Ed Sukach

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I don't mean to "hammer" ALL camera clubs ... there may well be a number of them that really support and HELP the neophytes and new members.
So far ALL those *I* have been in contact with have been "closed cliques". Their one great fault is their "narrowness" and paranoia in maintaining their "positions among themselves".

I recently was in the "field" loading a Hasselblad magazine. A passer-by stopped:

Passerby: "Hi. Out of curiosity - What film are you using?"

Me: "Hi. Agfacolor 400."

P: "Not `Acros'?"

M: "No - I'm working in color, Isn't `Acros' black and white?"

P: "Yes. You should be working in black and white."

M: (Silently) Groan.

P: "I belong to the XYZ Camera Club, and WE all know that `Acros' is the best film available. You've GOT to use Fuji film, anyway... all of them are far superior to ... even ... Kodak."

M: (Virtual inner tube between teeth) "Yes ... I've heard they are pretty good."

P: "Pretty good! They are FAR superior. I can't believe anyone who calls himself a photographer would use inferior fim, like Agfa."

M: "Interesting comment. I have to go now."

Into the automobile.. drive a large circle to eat up a half-hour or so. Return to the scene - Camera Club Passerby gone - and I can work in peace.

That was the zero-eth alternative (1. Fight, 2. Flight or 0. Leave the scene).
 

Ole

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Funny - everyone in my cameraclub used Velvia, and TMax for B&W...

They all agreed I was a strange man to use Ektachrome and Ilford FP4+ :wink:
 

glbeas

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Funny, no one in the camera clubs I've been to gave a rats a** what you used as long as you created something interesting. I've been lucky in that respect, both clubs I've attended were more intent on promoting photography than they were of status quo or anything even resembling it. Theres quite a few older folks and retirees in them and they just like to have fun.
 

Ed Sukach

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I'm going to apologize ... Every time I try to acknowledge that there may well be ... and probably ARE, many "good" Camera Clubs" with kind and helpful participants, I think of all the "nasty" things I've seen in those I have been associated with.

Clubs are made up of people, and like people they have thier own personalities and quirks. If you are contemplating joining one, visit them with an open mind, and, above all, OPEN EYES.
 

glbeas

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No need for apologies for my part Ed, I think your experiences are very interesting to know about. Lets us in on things we need to watch for both in ourselves and in others trying to push unnecesary BS our way. In the literary arts yours would be considered a "cautionary tale". I can appreciate it.
 

bjorke

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Of course APUG is technically a camera "club." but one that has a different suite of functions than those of a PSA-mandated club. Sociologically, still a club.

The greatest danger of clubs is a consensual banality, a sorry sideeffect of groupthink that often comes from a desire for egalitarian "niceness." When demanding criticism is mistaken for persoanl attacks (or vice versa), then the party's over. But better that than a replacement of challenging thought with comforting hugs all 'round.

---

Has anyone read Michael Jang's web journal about Dead Link Removed

---

As for the question of "vision" as a teachable characteristic -- it can be deeply influenced by a teacher (or multiple teachers). Does this mean it was "taught"? Not if you feel that the teacher has placed 100% of that "vision" into the student's head. But can a first-rate teacher touch the student's eyes with a magic wand called "knowing what to look for"? Absolutely. In this way, their vision has indeed been taught.

(Besides, I have to tell myself this to justify the years of student loans from a first-rate art school, heh)
 

Ed Sukach

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Minor White and Vision

Recently, as a side effect of "curating" a gallery, I came in contact with a fascination person... exhibiting exquisite "Turned Wooden Bowls" with the Oil Paintings, - etc, of his wife. Small talk (ugh! - I am NOT good at small talk) ensued, and after I let him know that I was involved with photography, he told me that he had studied photography with Minor White at RIT - not boastfully; "I", but as an adjunct to his "Design" major. Six degrees of separation ..

This GENTLEMAN, let me borrow "Minor White - Rites and Passages", published by Aperture in 1978. What a marvelous "read"!!

Minor White was, indeed, FASCINATING: 1959; "... First full-time resident workshop (at California School of Fine Arts),: Introduces hypnosis techniques into concentration readings of reading photographs."

White had many innovative techniques .. I haven't completely read this, yet - it will take - DESERVES - some additional reading and re-reading ... but I am nearly blown away by some of Minor White's philosophies and PHOTOGRAPHS.... the one described as "Twisted Tree - Point Lobos, California" on page 33, has entranced me -

Bear with me - this is a long quote ...but I'll leave it to the readers here to determine its' worth:

"At the start of each class, when White told them to relax, to sit there with their eyes shut and their hands on their knees and relax, most of them could not begin to imagine --- what with the writing arm of the desk around their waists, never mind the (image of) the nurse --- what in the world they were being asked to do. When they opened their eyes, they would be looking at a photograph, and White would tell them to look at it until they saw it. A long silence would follow. They were looking at work that was properly printed and mounted, that much everyone saw, and the same standards applied to all aspects of the craft - even those who could not stand the long silences found themselves sitting still for him in one way or another. Finally someone would say, Well? And Jerry Uelsmann --- who went on to become nearly as well known a photographer as White, hardly your ordinary institute of technology student --- was in one of those classes, and even he, according to Bunnell, fought White every step of the way, at least at first. Well what? Uelsmann would say. What do you feel? White would say--- It's a picture of snow-- do you feel cold? And Uelsmann would say, No. Am I supposed to? And White would say, Let's not talk about what you are supposed to feel, let's talk about what you feel. When the bell rang and the students were asked to remember exactly where they were so that they could pick up there several days later, some of them, after a while, found this suggestion to be not as crazy as it sounded."

Something to think about in my own work: The difference between what I want to do, in my own heart, and what others try to impress upon me as what I am supposed to do. Not that "the others" are especially successful - I don't think they are - but I will expend additional energy and consciousness to insure that their influence is not the major factor "driving" me...

Fascinating book. The Lender told me that, "There is information in that book about Minor White that I would rather have NOT known. "Weird" guy, in a number of ways --- but being "weird" is probably a very desirable label in this game.

More to follow -
 

c6h6o3

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Good book, but Mirrors, Messages, Manifestations is a lot better. Deeper, and many more fine photographs. It's hard to find, but unquestionably Minor White's published masterpiece.
 
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