CAn Negatives sweat?!!?

[Shangheye]

Okay, so this is possibly the most bizzare event in a long time of developing film experience :confused:. I processed 6 sheets of Adox CHS 50 last night in Rodinal 1:50, and then allowed them to dry overnight in the film holder (I have a series of combi-tanks as dunk tanks). Anyway, the negatives looked well and dry when I picked them up in the film carrier this evening and walked upstairs (My dark room is in the cellar/basement) to file them in my negative folder.

I realised as I was trying to put the negatives in the sleeves they were catching, so I inspected them and what did I find....what appeared to be moisture that had formed on the negative, or was it sweating? I have no idea, but since the temeperature in the house is not THAT different, and the humidity isn't either, I am a bit confused. This hasn't happened before, and I wondered if it could be the film.

As I have written this, the moisture seems to have evaporated (some drying marks remain)......very wierd.

Maybe the humidity or temperature really are different, especially now it is summer?

Anyway...wondered if anyone else has had a similar experience.

Rgds, Kal

 

[Ian Grant]

Of course they can, usually it's not normally noticeable.

Think about paper, stick it in a dry-mounting press a huge amount of water comes out

Ian

 

[bobwysiwyg]

Could it be related to letting them dry in the film holder? Any place the negs came in contact with the holder, some moisture may have been trapped and did not completely dry and you noticed it only when loading for storage. Just a thought.

 

[Shangheye]

So how do I avoid this happening in future? Clearly if this is correct, then this particular film retains water more easily (never had this problem with for example FP4 etc).....does this mean it needs a warmer environment to dry out intially?...a bit disconcerting if I have to watch it dry twice...especially if the second time around it leaves drying marks...K

 

[Ian Grant]

EFKE film will probably retain more moisture as its a relatively unhardened emulsion, so will swell in a humid environment. I haven't used a hardening fixer for years, probably not since leaving school, but perhaps you need to.

Ian

 

[jim appleyard]

I think Efke uses a thicker emulsion, thus holding more water?

 

[Ian Grant]

No Jim, EFKE - Adox use ultra thin emulsions they were decades ahead of anyone else

It's just they aren't that well hardened, although they are a lot better than a few years ago.

Ian

 

[jim appleyard]

Ahh yes, if memory serves, the story goes that Adox had a problem with an emulsion and scraped some of it off the film. Thus, the thin emulsion era was born. Of course, I have no idea if the story is true.

 

[Shangheye]

Good point about drying in the holder and the hardner. Hardner is recommended post fixing, but I preffered the "Polaroid 55" route which is unhardened, but just care for the negatives, and it has worked previously. The last batch of Adox I did before this one was only three sheets and I had no problems with sweating/drying. I wonder if I need to reduce the number of sheets in each holder when drying ( I have three holders so I can spread them if necessary. Definitely the main difference this time was the number of sheets...K

 

[AgX]

Jim,

No filmmanufacturer would scrape of part of an emulsion. Nice story though...
Getting a thin emulsion in the old days was very much dependent on the viscosity of the emulsion. Just thinning it would decrease the halide concentration, to show you one of the problems.


By the way, hardening an emulsion in industrial coating is a difficile job too.

 

[bobwysiwyg]

So how do I avoid this happening in future? Clearly if this is correct, then this particular film retains water more easily (never had this problem with for example FP4 etc).....does this mean it needs a warmer environment to dry out intially?...a bit disconcerting if I have to watch it dry twice...especially if the second time around it leaves drying marks...K

My first thought would be to not dry them in the holder, but rather remove and hang each sheet individually with clips.

 

[Martin Aislabie]

I have this problem - with 5x4 HP5

There seems to be a big difference between what I think is dry and what actually is dry

I dry my negs in an ambient air stream to avid drying marks and keep the negs as flat as possible

I have leaned I need to switch the heat on at low in the film drying cabinet for 10 mins after the negs appear to be dry to make sure they actually are properly dry

I could never spot the water droplets - but there they were when I tried to insert the sheet into the filing sheets

Martin

 

[Shangheye]

Thanks Martin...nice to know it isn't just me! I don't have a film drying cabinet yet, but I will make sure I dry outside the dark room...it's in the basement and definitely colder than the rest of the house. K

 

[fschifano]

Could it be related to letting them dry in the film holder? Any place the negs came in contact with the holder, some moisture may have been trapped and did not completely dry and you noticed it only when loading for storage. Just a thought.

That's what I think too. Don't do that. Hang the film on a line with clothes pegs or something. Look at it this way. When you hang a roll of film to dry, isn't the last place to dry right where the clip is attached to the bottom of the strip?

 

[Shangheye]

Hi Frank, This sdefinitely might have something to do with it, but remember, when I looked at the negatives in the darkroom they "appeared" dry. The wet patch that appeared was actaully around the middle, not the edges. Next time I dry them I am going to observe what happens. I have dried negatives like this for over a year and never had a problem...Adox was the first. May even dry a mix of films at the same time to see if they behave the same way. K

 

[Martin Aislabie]

I use Jobo Film Clips (available from Fred Newman at the View Camera Store - Dead Link Removed)

My mysterious water droplets were neither adjacent to the Film Clips or the Bottom Corner of the hanging film.

I came to the conclusion that film dried in ambient air took hours to dry properly and the only way of guaranteeing them to be dry within 45 mins was to have 30mins of ambient air and at least 10mins of 1st stage warm air in the film drying cabinet

Shangheye – a Film Drying Tent (I use a Durst UT100) was one of the best photographic investments I ever made - my Negs are so much cleaner because of it

Good luck

Martin

 

[Shangheye]

Thanks Martin, I will look in to getting one...with winter coming on, I don't want to go through that again. It sounds like you had someting similar. Rgds, kal

 

[Mackinaw]

Any chance it was condensation? It doesn't take much if it's somewhat muggy in your house.

Jim B.

 

[Shangheye]

I think as that might be it, but I had not encountered it before. Since the Adox film emulsion is different to modern films, I was not sure if that also compounded the problem. K

 

[Claire Senft]

Do they sweat more if they receive heavy burning?

 

[Shangheye]

Don't know what you mean Claire...These are negatives, so what do you mean by burning?

 

[Claire Senft]

When a negative has an area that you wish to selectively darken the process is referred to as "burning". Should the converse be true that there is an area to be selectively lightened it can be done by selectively holding back exposure to it. This is referred to as "dodging".

I am wondering "if such lightening is done whilst being subjected to a random movement of air, have I become a draft dodger?".

 

[Shangheye]

I'm familiar with the terms for printing, and wasn't aware that could be done with a negative. Anyway the answer is no, this was a normally exposed negative, and the only consistent factor at first seemed to be the actual film type/brand, though the discussion of temperatures/humidity and also the number of negatives in a holder as wll as the philosophy of actually using the holder seem to also be possibilities....as for your closing comment...you're kidding right?!! K

 

[Claire Senft]

Yes I was making a jest.

 

[Shangheye]

...I can finally get a nights sleep now :rolleyes: