Can i bring extremely expired paper (blackened) back into a not so expired paper (greyish)?

gust a · Dec 20, 2021

Greetings!

I recently came across a bunch of expired papers.

Some of them are half gone into decay (whites gone grey), which i like a lot, since im fond of solarizing. Some images look real nice in greyish paper.

But half of it (including a closed envelope of Forte Elegance and a 100 sheets box of a very nice Kodak resin paper) is way too gone. It develops into complete blackness even if not burned.

Ive heard (but never tried) about ways to restore fogged papers, and so id like to ask you

is there a way to bring these too decayed paper back into something grey-based?

I appreciate a lot!

pentaxuser · Dec 20, 2021

It sounds like you have age-fogging(white to half grey). Benzotriazole is the usual chemical to try and reduce age-fog but there is a limit to how well this works In total darkness process part of a fogged sheet in fixer only and wash then develop, fix and wash another sheet. The first sheet will be the same white as a new sheet and the second will have a grey age-fog. That way you can be sure of how much fog there is. If the fogged paper is very dark grey then a light grey may be possible. If light grey then white or almost white may be possible but if the paper is very old then you are likely to have the additional problem of loss of contrast so that a print will have a grey look in the image

I have never heard of paper so badly fogged that it was black but if this is the state of you paper then I suspect it is fogged too much to get any improvement

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 20, 2021

Probably the kodak paper is developer incorporated. I don't expect it could be brought back to life.

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 20, 2021

I had a large roll of kodak roll RC that was 15 years old. Tried to bring it back to life. Cut it all up for carbon tissue substrate.. that's about all it was good for.

mshchem · Dec 20, 2021

Don't assume that opened packages have not been exposed to light. People under 40 might not know photographic paper is light sensitive.

nmp · Dec 20, 2021

What if you bleach it with a halogenating (with KBR) bleach, wash without fixing and dry. Then expose it thru a negative and develop. Just a thought. Not that I have tried that.

:Niranjan.

pentaxuser · Dec 20, 2021

Can I ask: Are we all agreed that totally black paper as described by the OP is in fact light fogged and therefore useless. As I said I have never heard of age-fogged paper being black.

pentaxuser

Patrick Robert James · Dec 20, 2021

I've seen age fog paper be nearly black. I know it wasn't exposed to light because I bought it new. It can happen.

If you want to use it you could bleach it and use it wet, probably.

Don_ih · Dec 21, 2021

pentaxuser said:
I have never heard of age-fogged paper being black

I have an almost full 250 sheet box of 8x10 mgii (maybe iii) rc paper that develops black. I got it second-hand but find it unlikely someone rifled through the entire stack of paper in a bright room. But maybe someone did.

mshchem said:
Don't assume that opened packages have not been exposed to light.

You see listings showing the actual paper all the time on ebay. As in, for sale right now

Helge · Dec 21, 2021

Don Heisz said:
I have an almost full 250 sheet box of 8x10 mgii (maybe iii) rc paper that develops black. I got it second-hand but find it unlikely someone rifled through the entire stack of paper in a bright room. But maybe someone did.

You see listings showing the actual paper all the time on ebay. As in, for sale right now

Wouldn't expect anything else from a person who doesn't think of washing his hands before taking a sales photo.

Pitotshock · Dec 21, 2021

Don Heisz said:
You see listings showing the actual paper all the time on ebay.

I'm sure it's still good!

BMbikerider · Dec 21, 2021

gust a said:
Greetings!

I recently came across a bunch of expired papers. Some of them are half gone into decay (whites gone grey), which i like a lot, since im fond of solarizing. Some images look real nice in greyish paper. But half of it (including a closed envelope of Forte Elegance and a 100 sheets box of a very nice Kodak resin paper) is way too gone. It develops into complete blackness even if not burned. Ive heard (but never tried) about ways to restore fogged papers, and so id like to ask you.
is there a way to bring these too decayed paper back into something grey-based?

I appreciate a lot!

I think you need the Midas Touch to resurrect these papers, even Benzotriazole will struggle to make any impression.

Don_ih · Dec 22, 2021

Paper that develops black can be used for lumen prints. You can also use it for chemigrams - which can be cool. With paper that develops grey, you can expose and develop normally then bleach and redevelop. Some people have good luck redeveloping in lith dev.

NB23 · Dec 22, 2021

Mint condition

Don Heisz said:
I have an almost full 250 sheet box of 8x10 mgii (maybe iii) rc paper that develops black. I got it second-hand but find it unlikely someone rifled through the entire stack of paper in a bright room. But maybe someone did.

You see listings showing the actual paper all the time on ebay. As in, for sale right now

pentaxuser · Dec 22, 2021

Don Heisz said:
Paper that develops black can be used for lumen prints. You can also use it for chemigrams - which can be cool. With paper that develops grey, you can expose and develop normally then bleach and redevelop. Some people have good luck redeveloping in lith dev.

Can I ask: Is this normal "ferri"? ; what dilution? and do you base the bleach time on the time it takes to turn the grey into white in the borders?
Finally in your experience how grey can it be before there is no hope of full restoration to white or a very near white?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Dec 22, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Can I ask: Is this normal "ferri"? ; what dilution? and do you base the bleach time on the time it takes to turn the grey into white in the borders?
Finally in your experience how grey can it be before there is no hope of full restoration to white or a very near white?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I only know what one guy told me. He said it was normal bleach and bleached to white then redeveloped in lith developer in room light. He said he got great results doing it. Maybe it would need more time under the enlarger and anything as sophisticated as even normal dodging and burning wouldn't really work.

I have overprinted and bleached back a couple of times - not to great success, though. And for that, you use reducer.

The greatest success I've had with old fogged paper has been using added KBr and Benzo and sodium carbonate. Bleaching and redeveloping seems too much trouble and not enough control of the image.

pentaxuser · Dec 22, 2021

Thanks, Don. I asked because I had thought that in theory bleach and redevelopment even with ordinary print developer might work but then on second thoughts, I wondered that as bleaching and redeveloping allows the picture to re-emerge it probably doesn't do the same thing as is needed to return the unprinted areas only to pure white and then prevent the developer from returning the borders back to grey

What might work but only on lightly age-fogged paper is to print border-less instead but this might depend on how the negative was. By this I mean that large highlight areas (nearly black on the neg) might still show the grey age fog.However I don't know

pentaxuser

Down Under · Dec 22, 2021

Most definitely light-fogged. Opened in daylight by someone who didn't know best.

The numbers of Ebay ads I've seen like #9 is astounding. One camera club member I once taught the basics to bought two 250 8x10" sheet boxes of superb quality FB paper from an Ebay seller and proceeded to cut it all into 5x8" sheets in daylight - on her kitchen table. She then she is Tasmanian...

MattKing · Dec 22, 2021

Fixed that for you

MattKing · Dec 22, 2021

I have some old Agfa RC paper that came from a sealed box that goes straight to black when immersed in developer. It is reasonably likely that there was at least the trace amounts of developer incorporated in it.

eli griggs · Dec 22, 2021

These overfogged and exposed papers are full of recoverable silver, as there are several ways to recover it, with a little experimental effort on your part.

I no longer trash papers and film waste, test prints, poor editions, leaders, etc and even if I have to use the Army silver recovery method, of burning papers/films, I'll give this a go when I have enough stored back.

No for everyone, I know, but it is doable.

I already take trashed films and put them in a jug of fixer that still have some useful life in it and, in the hot months, allow it to evaporate naturally, leaving behind clear film base, and I believe the silver bearing material can be electroplated out, when enough is accumulated.

Happy Holidays to All and Godspeed to Everyone, Everywhere.

Eli

Pitotshock · Dec 22, 2021

I too have had a number of sealed Kodak boxes that yielded nothing but black squares. I'm fairly certain that no one opened it and fully exposed every sheet. Just didn't age well. The old Ilford stuff on the other hand just seems to keep on trucking.

NB23 · Dec 22, 2021

Kodak rc fogged the very next day after expiry limit.
Those papers are hopeless.

Agfa, as well.

Just don’t touch those papers.

eli griggs · Dec 22, 2021

Built in developer is a kiss of death for otherwise good papers, IMO.

MattKing · Dec 22, 2021

For clarity, paper manufacturers use very tiny amounts of developer-like additives to fine tune speed and contrast behavior in papers, in order to ensure batch to batch consistency.
This is fundamentally different than the developer incorporated papers that are designed for rapid production using activator chemistry - none of which are still being manufactured.
Those activation papers are/were relatively short lived. The papers with trace additives usually last much longer than their "develop before" dates before their performance is significantly impacted.

Can i bring extremely expired paper (blackened) back into a not so expired paper (greyish)?

gust a

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