Can frozen film get freezer burn?

The subzero temperatures will keep the chemistry from reacting, but lets say you freeze film for a very long time. 10-20-40 years. What are the adverse effects. Can film frozen for long enough get freezer burn (ie dry and brittle).

Does the type of film chemistry matter, B&W, c41, e-6?

I'm interested in building a stock of certain films that may disappear

I've always had a stock of frozen film--nothing older than 20 years, though--and the only issue I've ever seen is slightly increased fog in higher speed films. I put the film into those zip-lock freezer bags and, depending on the film size, I'll put those bags into some sort of container to keep them organized.

I have film in zip locks with no problem, but meat in zip locks does dry out after a while.

I freeze all of my new film in its original manufacturer's packaging.
I've done that for decades with no issues.

None of it is many years old, as I try to use it in a reasonable time.
So this may not apply directly to the OP's question.

- Leigh

There is an optimum humidity of the emulsion. This can be reduced in dry atmosphere.
However such change is reversable. Furthermore only a tiny amount of vapour is neccesary for that as the mass of the emulsion is so small.

"Freezer burn" is another term for 'dehydration'. Since film has very little water content, it can't dehydrate.

As I pointed out it can dehydrate. "Freezer burn" is a term designating an irreversable state. Once you moisture that meat the "burned" patches behave differently. That would not be with film.

mike c said:

I have film in zip locks with no problem, but meat in zip locks does dry out after a while.

Click to expand...

+1

I've frozen film for many years with no issues. While sorting out my film freezer recently, my wife mentioned the little kitchen vacuum sealer which she uses to seal food in plastic bags before freezing, and wondered if this was any good for sealing films before freezing....I can't honestly see any advantage (other than tidyness!), but wondered if there is any benefit or otherwise. (The vacuum seems very strong, it will squash a card box if you let the device run fully, before it heat seals the bag).

No matter what you do to protect your film in the freezer, it will eventually fog. I guess that's our freezer burn equivalent... I have Kodak HEI 4x5 sheet film in the freezer from the '60's. It's very, very fogged, but I can still pull an image from it. So, freezer burn? No worries.

railwayman3 said:

I've frozen film for many years with no issues. While sorting out my film freezer recently, my wife mentioned the little kitchen vacuum sealer which she uses to seal food in plastic bags before freezing, and wondered if this was any good for sealing films before freezing....I can't honestly see any advantage (other than tidyness!), but wondered if there is any benefit or otherwise. (The vacuum seems very strong, it will squash a card box if you let the device run fully, before it heat seals the bag).

Click to expand...

The less vapour is in the film container the less can codensate on the emulsion resp. has to be taken up by the emulsion.
However, if the casette has been put back into its plastic container, and that being put into a plastic bag (eg. for gathering), putting a vacuum on that bag has no useful effect.

There are instances where exposed film was left in frozen environments for many decades with little or no deterioration. The best example are movies of the Scott Antarctic expedition that were left behind and discovered more than half century later. Also, a treasure trove of early movies was discovered behind a remote theater in Alaska where reels were tossed out rear window to save return shipping costs. Films preserved, but had to be sorted out. I have a freezer full of 16mm Kodak tri-x in original packaging (sealed box, foil airtight wrapper, tight plastic can) and expect film to be completely usable. Film for still cameras, 120, 35mm, Minolta 16 and Minox repose in my basement, where temperatures are relatively cool but humidity low.

To avoid "freezer burn" you are best advised to freeze films in a zippy bag, with as little air in the bag as you can. It is strongly preferable to keep the film in the manufacturer's packaging especially if the roll/cassette/cartridge is in a foil packet. I've certainly kept film this way for 15 years or more.

The freezing slows down any chemical reactions/decomposition but won't stop them entirely. And unless you lead line your freezer, you will still have slow cumulative damage from background radiation.

I live under a rock.
Thus I got no issue of cosmic radiation...

hahahaha ill bet thats the cause of alot of film failures.

the amount of moisture is probably in the backing paper, the air in tge container, between layers of the film. the emultion certainly is not dry or it would powder off its base material.

freezers cycle a defrost mode and during that cycle is probably when you'll get condensation.... how many cycles can your film take before seeing the result?

ive got rolls of old tri x i found under a work bench from 1970. my basement is dry and doesnt go to extream temp shifts. . the film still worked fine although a bit slow in asa as expected, with very little fog, at least not enough to stop from making prints.

so damned if you do, damned if you dont!

i guess in extream hot conditions, freezing is a must and you roll the dice.

paul ron said:

freezers cycle a defrost mode and during that cycle is probably when you'll get condensation.... how many cycles can your film take before seeing the result?

Click to expand...

Not all do such cycle. At least not over here.

paul ron said:

the amount of moisture is probably in the backing paper, the air in tge container, between layers of the film. the emultion certainly is not dry or it would powder off its base material.

freezers cycle a defrost mode and during that cycle is probably when you'll get condensation.... how many cycles can your film take before seeing the result?

Click to expand...

You got it exactly wrong. The defrost cycle melts the ice and draws off the water which it evaporates thus it dehumidifies the air. That is how it works.

What to dehumidize? There is merely vapour in a freezer. It has changed to ice.

A defrost cycle heats, or ar least no longer cools the cooling panels. By that the ice melts, the water is lead onto the compressor where it evaporates into the room when the compressor starts again. At least that is the way such cycle works at a refrigerator.

To avoid icing, by the room air brought in whilst opening the freezer, there are models that ventilate the freezing cabinet, and lead that airstream alongside a special cooling panel, by that concentrating the ice formation there. Then a de-frost cycle as above can be employed just at that very panel.

EDIT:
Sirius, shouting at others when you yourself got it wrong is not nice. And you are still shouting even after having taken over my correction to your erroneous post.

And you still are shouting without reason: Of course a defrost-cycle itself will raise the vapour within the cabinet during that cycle. For that moment goods inside will be at risk of condensation. (It later will sublimate and condensate at the panels again.)

1kgcoffee said:

The subzero temperatures will keep the chemistry from reacting, but lets say you freeze film for a very long time. 10-20-40 years. What are the adverse effects. Can film frozen for long enough get freezer burn (ie dry and brittle).

Does the type of film chemistry matter, B&W, c41, e-6?

I'm interested in building a stock of certain films that may disappear

Click to expand...

Good idea 1kgcoffee but you are coming a bit late - would you not say so?
Most of films you should have to work with for the next decades have eben discontinued since years.
Have a look to Kodak E6 films : 14 different emulsions in 2002!
And today?
Another aspect - price increases .

Ok - never to late to freeze films?

You are right - but what are the problems
with frozen films?
There might be problems of cause.
First - think for the original packaging.
The film boxes (paper/carton) they could
be damaged from moisture (a litte).
To avoid this - the mentioned idea to use
a vacuum sealer with plastic backs is
great.

Just to protect carton of the packaging.

Comming to the films - as Agx stated there is an optimum humidity of the
emulsion.
This should be manufactured and conserved with original NEW films
within the original plastic cans to 135 films.And I see the same procedure with
120/220 films in original aluminium/plastic packaging.
You should not open it or left it before
freezing.
If you will follow this advice you can get
sure that there is an (I name it) "micro clima"/"microclimate" in your original boxed fims witch is stabile to many years.
From this you can be sure that you have also protect the optimum humidity of your emulsion.
So the discussion about dehydration or
"freezer burn" should be no matter to
you.
It you have total unboxed films - there should be a little danger to some theroraticaly effects when you freeze
your films in this way (unprotected).
But this would be in concerns of freezing/defreezing your films often.
Dehydration of the emulsion from first
freezing is within normal tolerances.
But after decades of freezing ? I won't
be very afraid to have big damaging in this example.

The classic dehydration to material works different as from your freezer.
Shock frosting as method of dehydration
does need first very low temperatures.
And secondary absolute vacuum.
More of you can get from a kitchen vapourer.
So you have not to be afraid of these effects at all because it is very unrealistic.

Otherwise you will freeze you films on the
moon with it's vacuum and don't forget
it's temperature (in shadow areas).

Of cause THIS would indeed dehydrate
your films totaly.

Coming at least to radiation effects to
frozen films (after decades) - sorry but I
don't believe to these effects too.

Frozen films on the moon surface - of
cause you would have troubble with cosmic radiation.
But your freezer is protected fromm
1,5mm steel?
If you could handle your films by avoiding
any riscs - take your freezer in your
shelter/basementroom.
The cosmic radiation should be tamed
there in concern to have no effects to films.

At least differences of films to long freezer storage?
I can't see a difference between C-41and
E6. Exeptional the fact that collor crossings to E6 films are more bad as on C-41 films.
But to avoid this you would have the intention to long time freezing - that fine.

Notice : bw films outside a freezer will have in general a longer time to live.

Therefore I would make a difference to
bw films (no need to freeze with extrem
low temperatures in comparison to E6,C-41).
Or freezing together means additional
livetime to bw films.
My advice in concern of temperature in your freezer is -18 degree celsius.

To freeze films for very long times
-24 degree celsius.

And notice : "No frost" freezers
(without ice) are recomended in general
to film storage by freezing.

with regards

Leigh B said:

I freeze all of my new film in its original manufacturer's packaging.
I've done that for decades with no issues.

None of it is many years old, as I try to use it in a reasonable time.
So this may not apply directly to the OP's question.

- Leigh

Click to expand...

Yes - Leigh thats the "professional" method of freezing films - and this should avoid any problems here discussed theoretically.
So it shall be the KEY.
By the time to proffessionals - one of this early guys I was at his home in his kitchen.
He got a plastic bag with somerwhere
60-80 New films without any packaging
(only within a pastic back from a supermarket )
in his big freezer.
There in his freezer I saw ammounds of
freezed films 800 films ? - I can't count them.
I was afraid for his films :" Oh no - your
poor films"
He answered:" It doesn't matter to these
films - they love it.What you see in this
bag (80films) I need at the end of the week.And all films in my freezer I need
within max. 2 month - may be within 5
weeks - we will see"

It was Short Time Storage to over
700-900 films - increadible - but so it
was in the 80th.

with regards

Sirius Glass said:

You got it exactly wrong. The defrost cycle melts the ice and draws off the water which it evaporates thus it dehumidifies the air. That is how it works.

Click to expand...

ummm not when the moisture is trapped inside the ziploc bag with your film.

In that case the primary surface for condensation would be the bag.

paul ron said:

ummm not when the moisture is trapped inside the ziploc bag with your film.

Click to expand...

That is highly unlikely to occur in Southern California.

im sorry but you are wrong! moisture or water vapor even on the molecular level at room temperatur trapped in the film packing materials and the film itself will percipitate out at low temps.

since its all packed in an air tight ziploc bag it cant escape and will form ice resulting in freezer burn. unless youve desicated everything in that bag and vacuum sealed it at sub zero temps of around -50°f, aka freeze dry, you will have a problem in your domestic freezer.

tell me, when you dry mount photos do you first dry the matt n picture in your so cal dry clime? its not all that dry where you live unless you live on the moon?

-) Vapour condensating to ice on a product surface will not cause "freezer burn".
-) It is dehydration that will do.
-) Emulsion will not be harmed by dehydration.