Can developer effect image sharpness?

jordanstarr

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I did some looking around and couldn't find the answer to this. The big reason I ask is because I bought a package of really old d-76 developer from a local shop and developed some film, scanned the negs, but noticed the images were softer. The exposure and developer worked perfectly and wasn't brown or anything like that. I usually use Pyrocat-HD, but have use x-tol and d-76 occasionally and have had great results. I know I didn't do a perfect scientific comparison and honestly don't care to do one of the answer is a straightforward "yes" or "no". Any thoughts?
 

RobertV

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Yes, if you compare two extreme type of developers Rodinal 1+50 - 1+100, Beutler A+B (all very high acutance developers) and ultra fine grain developers like Microdol-X, Perceptol you can see a difference in grain and type of grain. Especially in 35mm film and enlargements this is clearly visible. Ultra fine grain developers are tending to less sharpness due to a lack of crispy grain. Sodium Sulfite is surpressing grain too, so by diluting it (dev. 1+1 - 1+2) you can control this parameter.

It's always a compromise what you want to have as end result.
 
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Ian Grant

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Yes it can help enhance sharpness, through edge effects and rian size.

Pyrocat uses a tanning/staining developing agent Pyrocatechin & like Pyrogallol the tanning helps with edges effect, as does the high dilution. Pyrocat is similar to Rodinal in many ways but the tanning means it's like Rodinal on steroids

Xtol gives better sharpness than D76/ID-11 with modern T-grain & similar films like Tmax and Delta.

Ian
 

BrianShaw

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There is an interesting book by Bary Thornton that discusses this, amongst other sharpness issues. I forgo the name but you should be able to find it easily.
 

BrianShaw

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Oh, now I recall the title: Edge of Darkness.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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The sharpness of a photograph's grain is often perceived as image sharpness. Note that 'sharpness' (AKA accutance) is the perception of detail - a very different thing from actual subject detail.

If you take a picture of a resolution target and try different developers - with all else constant, camera on a tripod, critical magnifier - you will find there is almost no difference. What difference there is gives the nod to fine grain developers like Microdol and Xtol as the grain doesn't get in the way of reading the target. It is the same with films, where often a very sharp fine-grain film will produce a less-sharp-looking print as it lets all the lens aberrations shine through rather than hide them behind prominent sharply etched grain.
 
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Ian Grant

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Bruce Watson said:
Yep. Not a lot,
Click to expand...

With some of the developers sold in the 60's and 70's a lot of extra sharpness.

However most were never sold in the US. Kodak sold Kodelon their version of Rodinal in Europe as well as HDD - High Definition Developer designed to expoit the highest sharpness from Pan-X. Ilford sold Hyfin, Paterson - Acutol-S, Johnsons - Definol.

For some years there was a very different approach to developers in Europe, mainly because of the faster up take of quality miniature cameras, Rolleiflex, Leica, Contax, Exacta, Praktina etc (yes 120 cameras where once termed miniature ).

Kodak Research, Harrow were at the cutting edge of developer research in the 30's -50's not Rochester.

Ian
 

Ian Grant

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Nicholas Lindan said:
The sharpness of a photograph's grain is often perceived as image sharpness. Note that 'sharpness' (AKA accutance) is the perception of detail - a very different thing from actual subject detail.
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Grain is not the key to image sharpness, a high definition developer is often more grainy, the apparent sharpness is due to the edge effects.

One reason why Kodak didn't drop Tri-X as planned after the launch of Tmax 100 & 400 was because too many photographers thought Tri-X was sharper, it was less tonal & more graphic too.

An analogy is a Leitz lens compared to a Nikkor. The Leica lens is usually far sharper, higher definition but the Nikon lens has higher micro contrast, is less tonal but at smaller print sizes has more apparent sharpness.

Ian
 

keithwms

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Sure, you can definitely get a variety of results from different film/dev combos.

In order to figure out what a particular dev is doing (or not doing) for you, bear in mind that what we call 'sharpness' has many components including acutance, contrast etc. There is extensive literature on what developers do, in terms of these issues.

P.S. I'll just add that I would not use an ordinary (non drum) scanner to judge sharpness except in relative terms and when carefully comparing two pieces of film side by side in the same carrier.
 

RobertV

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Two examples in 35mm and 6x7cm rolfilm. Same film (Retro 100 Tonal).

First example is developed in CG512, a liquid (Metol type) ultra fine grain developer (Udo Raffay), fine grain, a bit lack of sharpness and these type developers gives always some speed loss, in this case E.I. 50.
Equipment: M7 (Leica RF) + Summicron 2,0/50mm, in principle one of the best 35mm lenses available.

Second example is developed in AM74, a liquid Phenidone/Hydroquinon semi-compensating developer (Amaloco, Jaap van Beugen), where this developer gives more sharpness then a particular fine grain.
Equipment: C.V. Bessa III 667 folder RF.

Two different (light contrast) situations: A high contrast scene. (Even with strong backlight) and Low contrast, foggy weather.






Same scanner V500 (Epson) resp. 3200dpi, 2400dpi. Hopefully you can see what is meant by grain, acutance, sharpness and high definition.

I'll just add that I would not use an ordinary (non drum) scanner to judge sharpness
Click to expand...

Well you see already how difficult it is.
 

keithwms

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Robert, I'm afraid that I don't see what we are supposed to judge from small web versions of different images shot on different formats and also developed differently and then scanned differently... it's apples and oranges, no?

Anyway, some time ago I reported my results comparing the monobath MM-1 and D23, both on 35mm pan f, same scene and exposure, scanned identically and side by side. The difference was quite obvious. Let's see, here is the link:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
 

Muihlinn

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Properly speaking your image won't be sharper if you use this or that, the perception of it for a given print size is what can be enhanced by the developer, but you need a sharp latent image to start with. A tripod and being careful for the focus will do lots more.
 

Steve Smith

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Can developer effect image sharpness?
Click to expand...

No but it might be able to affect image sharpness.

Sorry, the pedantic in me can't help it!


Steve.
 

Ian Grant

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Yes the image can be much sharper and this by the effects of a chosen developer.

In his definitive series of articles in the BJP in the winter of 1960/61 Geoffrey Crawley discussed image sharpness, he summed it up succinctly in the précis version in the 1961 BJP Almanac.

" Sharpness "-the overall impression of a print or projected image, measured scientifically as "acutance ", seen from normal viewing distance.

" Definition "-the extent to which fine detail is recognisably rendered in a print, etc. When acutance of fine detail is good, then definition is good.

" Acutance "-the contrast at the edge of significant detail, a scientific measurement of the density gradient at that point.

" Resolving Power "-the scientific measurement of the actual fineness of detail recordable by a lens, film, or developer, or any combination of these three.

Ian
 

Ian Grant

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smithy17 said:
I found this link, but he seems like a bit of a "Drama-Queen" to me.
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That's the same with his books

However it's the Pyrocatechin that plays an importnat part, it also works well alongside other developing agents like Metol and Phenidone but a particulary good combination is with PPD, (p-Phenylenediamine) which it complexes with, this was once made & sold as Meritol.

Meritol was the basis of some outstanding developers formualted by Johnsons, the first in in the 1930's, to achieve the best alround quality, with fine grain & excellent sharpness with 35mm films.

Ian
 

Bruce Watson

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Ian Grant said:
With some of the developers sold in the 60's and 70's a lot of extra sharpness.
Click to expand...

I guess that depends on your definition of "a lot".

I find that developer choice effects sharpness less than does using a tripod, focusing well, picking the right aperture, etc... But all of this is going to be dependent on the individual doing the work. And of course the importance of format -- smaller formats tend be "sharper" then larger formats because of the demands of lens design, particularly once you move to LF.

Also, the high acutance developers tend to sacrifice other aspects of image formation, such as tonality, to obtain the higher acutance. This is one of the reasons, IMHO, that high acutance developers never met with wide acceptance compared to a balanced compromise developer like D-76.
 

smithy17

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I always use a tripod with my RB67. I have 65mm and 127mm lenses which I try to keep around f-11 or there about. I am currently liking diluted ID11 very much with FP4 Plus and find it a very sharp combination.
 

smithy17

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Alan Johnson said:
Regarding developers,in detail you get into definitions of acutance and edge effects and the combinations of the two.There is a good account in "Controls in Black and White Photography" by R.Henry, 1986.
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I bought that book on Amazon. He seems to like Tri-X in D-76 1+1 and the old Ilfobrom in Dektol also 1+1 as his personal choices.
I am loving FP4+ in ID11 and might try GALERIE seeing that Simon Galley likes it.
http://www.ag-photographic.co.uk/kodak-dektol-1l-601-p.asp
 
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