Can anyone give me any prediction or insight on if there will be affordable/accessible 35 mm color film

LeoniD · May 19, 2022

NB23 said:
Anything that survived actually came from germany, the east

Yeah, right, lol. The famous german-based Kiev-10, 15, 17, 20, 19 ))
I'm not saying that there is no such thing as planned obsolescence, I just don't think it's applicable to film. A bit shorter shelf life is probably caused by a bit lower stability of the chemical compounds that are needed to create modern film

NB23 said:
I can’t buy quality winter boots anymore without paying 900$

Winter boots are pretty far from photography, but it's just lower purchasing power. I'm not an economics expert and especially not an expert in economics of countries that are almost 8000km away from me, but if the collective psychological barrier of "expensive" stays the same and prices of raw materials go up, the manufacturer has no choice but to switch to the cheaper alternatives

NB23 · May 19, 2022

I want to steer back to the original conversation, which was about companies not liking hoarders/one-time buyers.
The answer to that was to create programmed obsolescence, thus expiry dates, cheapening the products and so on.

Huss · May 19, 2022

NB23 said:
..

Planned obsolescence, instantaneous obsolescence. All comes down to the same. I can’t buy quality winter boots anymore without paying 900$.

I'm glad I don't even need shoes where I live.

On topic-ish, growing up we would have those Sony Trinitron tubed TV's. They literally lasted 20 years. Now we have flat screen TVs which last maybe 3-4 years.

LeoniD · May 19, 2022

NB23 said:
thus expiry dates

But film can't not expire. Fogging and degradation will occur one way or the other

Huss · May 19, 2022

NB23 said:
I want to steer back to the original conversation, which was about companies not liking hoarders/one-time buyers.
The answer to that was to create programmed obsolescence, thus expiry dates, cheapening the products and so on.

I think there is a difference between hoarding - which is keeping a large supply and not using it, but having it in case there is an "emergency" - and stock piling which is keeping a large supply that you will use.
My freezer is full of my film stock pile but I shoot all the time. I have it because I do not want to go down to a store, or mail order when I need a roll. I want to be able to just grab what I need, when I need it. In essence I am my own store. It is actually very liberating as it encourages me to shoot more, and not worry about running out of film.

Hoarders on the other hand just look at their stash, but don't dare touch it. Because, ya know, it's for emergencies.

faberryman · May 19, 2022

NB23 said:
I want to steer back to the original conversation, which was about companies not liking hoarders/one-time buyers.
The answer to that was to create programmed obsolescence, thus expiry dates, cheapening the products and so on.

I doubt that Kodak was/is worried about hoarders. Expiration date is meaningless to someone who keeps their film in a freezer. Given the amount of film and paper you go through, I can't imagine how any of it could possibly go bad on you.

Huss · May 19, 2022

LeoniD said:
But film can't not expire. Fogging and degradation will occur one way or the other

Film does not expire. It ripens.

MattKing · May 19, 2022

Best before dates are necessary as part of ISO certification for products that do change over time and go out of specification.
And the changes in lead time reflect the changes in ISO certification standards as well as the changes in the distribution systems. Film can't be counted upon to go unchanged for as long as in the past, because the manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers don't, in general, keep or ship it as carefully as they used to, because the low volumes make it uneconomic to do so.
And film and the other products manufactured by Kodak and Fuji and Ilford and others is sold into markets that demand ISO certification.
The additives to Kodak papers that affected longevity weren't strictly speaking, developer (except for the activation papers) - they were used to fine tune speed and contrast in order to ensure much better batch to batch consistency, which was critical to their commercial customers. I didn't use much of the last version of Kodak papers - their PolyMax papers. They were really good papers, and my understanding was that they had decent longevity, but by the time they were current the market for all black and white papers had decreased so much that Kodak was losing huge amounts of money producing and not being able to sell enough of them, so they pulled the plug.

Sirius Glass · May 19, 2022

NB23 said:
Joking? Programmed obsolescence is true and sadly, a norm. An all-American system.

The society went from people owning one car for a lifetime to owning at least 10. Heck, I’m on my 10th and I have a long way to go, still.
My parents lived on One washing machine for 35 years. I’m on my 5th.
A pair of shoes used to last at least a year. I now use 4 per year. Winter jackets? One per winter.

Films are nowadays rated tonbe “fresh” only 1.5 to 2 years. It used to be 3, 4 years at least. It’s nothing but a trick to sell more Film and go through the cycles much faster.

Unfortunately, Kodak or Fuji or Ilford, cannot chip their films, program them to burn in smoke once they reach expiry date. But if they had a trick to make the film unusable once it’s expired, they totally would. Something like make the cassettes open up, or even sending drones to grab the films off your hands.

Yes, kodak papers used to go bad even within it’s “fresh” period. Just think about it for a minute.

Chan Tran said:
My cars always were always broken to the point of can not be economically repaired. They are not obsolete. Even my first car a 69 GTO is still not obsolete if it's in good shape. Now I can't say the same for my cameras. Many of my film cameras are in perfect condition yet I can't afford to buy film and can't get RA-4 chemica shipped to me. So my film cameras are getting obsolete. Also the 69 GTO would run on unleaded gasoline but the Minolta SRT-101 need mercury battery. So stop comparing cars to cameras.

You must be buying the wrong cars. My daily driver was built in 1997 and looks almost like new. My offroad vehicle was built in 1998 and it has a few battle scars, but both only need regular maintenance and gas.

NB23 · May 19, 2022

Does Planned obsolescence really need defending? Such is our world.

MattKing · May 19, 2022

Planned limited life does make sense for some things - generally consumables.
The removal of a lot of preservatives and additives from foods being a good example.
And in the photographic world, it used to make total sense that the projection print stock for wide distribution motion picture movies wasn't designed to last for long periods, because the prints would wear out due to handling and projection.
The other tendency is also potentially problematic. Modern cars often have spark plugs intended to last 160,000 km, but are expensive to replace, due to the cost of the plugs, and the complexity of the replacement service.
FWIW, the new Ektachrome's design objectives included longer storage capabilities.

pentaxuser · May 19, 2022

Huss said:
On topic-ish, growing up we would have those Sony Trinitron tubed TV's. They literally lasted 20 years. Now we have flat screen TVs which last maybe 3-4 years.

The Sony Trinitron was my first colour TV. It was way better than any other I saw at the time and the longevity you quote was exactly right in my case. In fact in my case all that had happened was that the picture had just lost its brilliance and sharpness and a new one had the edge over it in those terms

On the other hand people expect improvements/ new gizmos in TVs when they change sets and a set that lasts 20 years just doesn't this

The speed of technology means that there is little point in making things that last beyond the point when they are outdated. Mobile phones and computers being the best examples of this

beemermark · May 19, 2022

NB23 said:
Unfortunately, Kodak or Fuji or Ilford, cannot chip their films, program them to burn in smoke once they reach expiry date. But if they had a trick to make the film unusable once it’s expired, they totally would. Something like make the cassettes open up, or even sending drones to grab the films off your hands.

Yes, kodak papers used to go bad even within it’s “fresh” period. Just think about it for a minute.

Do not post quotes like this. It might give someone at the film manufacturers an idea.

faberryman · May 19, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
You must be buying the wrong cars. My daily driver was built in 1997 and looks almost like new. My offroad vehicle was built in 1998 and it has a few battle scars, but both only need regular maintenance and gas.

People spend their money differently. Some people buy a car with cash and drive it until it is a pile of rust. Other people lease a car and get a new one every three years. Members of latter group also tend to buy a new camera every time a new model comes out.

A while back I suggested that Leica ought to look into leasing its cameras, since by the time you add a lens, the cost is comparable to some small cars. That way more people would be able to afford them, and it would make it easy for their customers to trade up to the newest model. For those who didn't want to continue using a Leica, Leica could then sell the off lease cameras used to other Leica enthusiasts. The market for used Leicas seems pretty robust, and Leica could take a slice of the sale, something they currently can't do. Of course, Leica would have to take on the risk that they might create another debacle like the M8/M9 sensor issues, and they would be stuck with a lot of cameras they couldn't sell for which they did not receive the full purchase price up front.

Huss · May 19, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
You must be buying the wrong cars. My daily driver was built in 1997 and looks almost like new. My offroad vehicle was built in 1998 and it has a few battle scars, but both only need regular maintenance and gas.

How many miles are on your vehicles?

MattKing · May 19, 2022

faberryman said:
People spend their money differently. Some people buy a car with cash and drive it until it is a pile of rust. Other people lease a car and get a new one every three years. Members of latter group also tend to buy a new camera every time a new model comes out.

The latter approach has significant advantages for the manufacturers, so they build cars that support it and financial systems that encourage it.
I believe that it is Tesla that recently changed their leasing system so that now those who lease one of their vehicles no longer have an option to buy the car at a pre-determined price at the end of a lease. The end of lease cars go back to tesla, to be dealt with at a price that the market will bear.
Which in some ways is good - Tesla has an incentive to build cars with greater longevity.

Sirius Glass · May 19, 2022

Huss said:
How many miles are on your vehicles?

1997 has 243,000 miles all mine
1998 has 163,000 miles of which the last 40,000 are mine - to and from off roading and off roading as in

Yes that is me driving. It is a government project, just look at the watch to work ratio.
The green grand cherokee was a 1993, the 1998 is a similarly equipt white one.

abruzzi · May 19, 2022

Huss said:
How many miles are on your vehicles?

I just sold my 1997 land cruiser with 300k on the drivetrain, and the drivetrain could have easily gone another 200k or more, but the plastics on the interior had gotten brittle so many of the interior bits were falling apart.

AgX · May 19, 2022

NB23 said:
Unfortunately, Kodak or Fuji or Ilford, cannot chip their films, program them to burn in smoke once they reach expiry date. But if they had a trick to make the film unusable once it’s expired, they totally would. Something like make the cassettes open up, or even sending drones to grab the films off your hands.

Impossible once had a film turning into kind of oblivion and used this for marketing...

Chan Tran · May 19, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
You must be buying the wrong cars. My daily driver was built in 1997 and looks almost like new. My offroad vehicle was built in 1998 and it has a few battle scars, but both only need regular maintenance and gas.

Yeah I think. My cameras are more than 40 years old even my cassette decks are more than 30 years old and they are like new but I can't seem to keep any car running for too long. Even the Marelli fan my dad bought when I was born (that's 67 years ago) still working.

koraks · May 19, 2022

Verifiable instances of true planned obsolescence are barely present. What does exist however is lots of conspiracy theorists with a weak understanding of innovation dynamics, technology development and product lifecycles trying to play a blame game by pointing towards 'corporations' or some other ill-defined public enemy. The notion that film in some way would be an example of planned obsolescence is ludicrous. Other examples, like cars and washing machines, are very contestable and often demonstrably false given the vast improvements in reliability brought along by paradigms such as 6 sigma and lean manufacturing. The fact that this so-called and unprovable planned obsolescence is always associated with evident quantum leaps in functionality, performance, efficiency and user friendliness is always conveniently left unsaid by the planned obsolescence fanboys as it might harm their shaky and conceptually unsound argument.

If you want to pick a valid grudge in this general context, I'd suggest the lack of serviceability of at least some products (consumer electronics would be a good start), but this in itself has nothing to do per se with planned obsolescence and evidently it doesn't apply to film.

Don_ih · May 19, 2022

koraks said:
Verifiable instances of true planned obsolescence are barely present.

Over the past 30 years or so, especially with consumer electronics, obsolescence hasn't needed to be planned at all. It's just something that's happened. However, as you said, serviceability would be something to consider (e.g., a cell phone that practically has to be destroyed to install a new battery) - and, of course, that is being considered.
At any rate, this culture thrives on the new, values it above all else. It doesn't have to be better, "new" implies better in almost every instance and is usually enough.

Huss · May 19, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
1997 has 243,000 miles all mine
1998 has 163,000 miles of which the last 40,000 are mine - to and from off roading and off roading as in
View attachment 305972

View attachment 305974
Yes that is me driving. It is a government project, just look at the watch to work ratio.
The green grand cherokee was a 1993, the 1998 is a similarly equipt white one.

Awesome.

Agulliver · May 20, 2022

I get the impression that cars last better than they used to. Our one and only vehicle is 11 years old in a few months, looks and drives like new. It's a very ordinary Skoda Octavia, and there is absolutely no incentive to replace it.

Some products have an expiry date because their performance will vary over time. Photo film is one of them. Many laboratory chemicals too....not because one must instantly dispose of them when the expiry date is reached, but because the substance begins to "go off". In the lab, I use tiny quantities of some powdered chemicals bought in the 60s for qualitative work...."does A react with B?". For quantitative work such as "How many ml to 2 decimal places is needed to fully neutralise 100.00ml of this 1.750M hydrochloric acid?" I need fresh, in date chemicals.

Food....now we can certainly argue if the EU became over-zealous with best before dates, but most sensible people see a need for them and also understand that food does not generally become instantly deadly when the date is passed.

If photographic film didn't deteriorate over time, we wouldn't have hundreds of messages and even whole websites devoted to such things as "how to use expired film".

Count me among those who buys more than I need at a given moment...especially if there is a good deal on a film I like...but I rarely have anything in my freezer for more than 2-3 years. I do have some funky low ISO Fuji B&W film that I bought on a whim and which may well sit in my "under the bed" film stash for a few years. Part of the way I keep this relatively affordable is by buying when there's an offer, or when I have some extra funds.

mtnbkr · May 20, 2022

Huss said:
I'm glad I don't even need shoes where I live.

On topic-ish, growing up we would have those Sony Trinitron tubed TV's. They literally lasted 20 years. Now we have flat screen TVs which last maybe 3-4 years.

Maybe we don't watch enough TV to wear one out, but our previous "main TV" was a Toshiba 720p LCD that was 10 years old when we gave it away. Due to the march of technology, we were able to replace it with one sporting a much larger screen. It's an LED "smart" model that fits in the same space due to having a smaller bezel. It's also about half the weight. As far as I'm aware the old one is still going strong (gave it to my brother to use in his guest bedroom). The new TV was also a fraction of the cost of the old Toshiba and is now about 2 years old.

Chris

Can anyone give me any prediction or insight on if there will be affordable/accessible 35 mm color film

LeoniD

NB23

Huss

LeoniD

Huss

faberryman

Huss

MattKing

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Sirius Glass

NB23

MattKing

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pentaxuser

beemermark

faberryman

Huss

MattKing

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Sirius Glass

abruzzi

AgX

Chan Tran

koraks

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Don_ih

Huss

Agulliver

mtnbkr

Can anyone give me any prediction or insight on if there will be affordable/accessible 35 mm color film

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