Can anyone give me any prediction or insight on if there will be affordable/accessible 35 mm color film

sasah zib · May 12, 2022

Prediction:
35mm CN (C-41) film will be produced without the Hanson mask. This film will be designed to be scanned. It will appear within 20months; over the following 60months Kodak will be a decreasing "brand name" --

Film will not be cheaper than it was last summer (2021)

---
Hanson, Wesley T. -- https://patents.google.com/patent/US2449966A/en
&&
W. R. J. Brown, "Subtractive Color Reproduction: Evaluation of the Actual Color-Reproduction Equations for a Color Process*," J. Opt. Soc. Am. 45, 539-546 (1955)
https://opg.optica.org/josa/abstract.cfm?URI=josa-45-7-539

----

MattKing · May 12, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
@MattKing That's the canonical method of replenishing in a small tank environment, isn't it? Not sure how it's any more consistent to use the same volume of tank solution each time, though, unless it's a 1L container to begin with. Running 1 to 4 rolls in that developer means the pour-back will have different levels of exhaustion and different amounts of carry-over loss.

I completely agree with both of you, however, that replenishment is both an economic winner and a way to increase consistency.

The increased consistency comes from the fact that when you keep the developing tank volume the same, you end up discarding the same amount of added byproducts per roll.
To give the clearest example, I am going to use some conveniently rounded numbers:
1) if one time you develop a 135 roll in 280 ml, and thus ad X amount of byproducts to that tank, when you discard 70 ml of that in the replenishment process, you are discarding X/4 of the added byproducts;
2) if you develop a 120 roll in 560 ml, and thus ad X amount of byproducts to that tank, when you discard 70 ml of that in the replenishment process, you are discarding X/8 of the added byproducts, or only half of the added byproducts discarded in the 135 case; however
3) if you develop either a 135 roll or 120 roll in 1120 ml, in either case you are discarding X/16 of the added byproducts.
The 3rd example more closely mirrors the procedure used by commercial labs with large tanks.
The goal, of course, is to achieve a steady state of byproduct concentration in the working solution. And replenishment works best when that steady state includes already a fairly high concentration of byproduct.

Agulliver · May 12, 2022

flavio81 said:
This would only be true if he refers to movie film.

And Orwo is about to disrupt that this year.

The conversation was specifically about C41 still film in 35mm and 120. With Andy Church from Kodak-Alaris. He wasn't exactly confident that film prices will ever drop, but said that the only way they could is if there is a sustained increase in sales.

Regarding bulk rolls...Kodak folk have repeatedly stated that it is not easy for them as their process for making 100ft and 400ft bulk rolls is not as automated as Ilford or Foma's. Hence the bulk rolls of tri-x and T-MAX costing a lot more than equivalent Ilford products.

Sirius Glass · May 12, 2022

Except for sales film prices increase monotonically as do chemicals and now cameras and lenses.

flavio81 · May 12, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Which I do when useful. My tank takes up to four 120 rolls so if I am only developing two 120 rolls there is no need to double up.

But now, thanks to 220, you don't need to tape two 120 rolls together. Convenience!! Have a pleasant experience developing your films! Zeiss lenses + 220 film = Heaven!! BUY NOW!!

flavio81 · May 12, 2022

Agulliver said:
The conversation was specifically about C41 still film in 35mm and 120. With Andy Church from Kodak-Alaris.

Well, then Andrew/Andy church is wrong, then:

Agulliver said:
When I spoke with Andy Church of Kodak-Alaris a few weeks ago, (...) He said they are "pretty much the only people in the world" making colour camera film. And the only way for the price to come down, is if we all buy more. Regularly.

Companies that make color still film:

- Kodak
- Fuji (Provia, Velvia, etc, and the fuji-made C41 film that is still sold in europe and japan)
- Adox (Color Mission 200 and its custom films for lomography)
- and probably, very, soon, Orwo.

Sirius Glass · May 12, 2022

flavio81 said:
But now, thanks to 220, you don't need to tape two 120 rolls together. Convenience!! Have a pleasant experience developing your films! Zeiss lenses + 220 film = Heaven!! BUY NOW!!

But then I would have to print 24 prints to have 5"x5" prints of each negative. I would rather send the 220 film for development.

flavio81 · May 12, 2022

Agulliver said:
He wasn't exactly confident that film prices will ever drop, but said that the only way they could is if there is a sustained increase in sales.

This goes contrary to exactly what has happened during the last two? three? five years...

Demand for C41 still film has skyrocketed, you can check out Henning Serger posts in the last years commenting that demand is far exceeding supply right now. You can see how popular color negative film is out of stock, often.

Yet the prices are increasing and increasing.

If demand increases yet there are only a few suppliers, there isn't any guarantee that prices will drop. More likely to happen it's the opposite. Andrew Church is creating a revolution in economic theory.

MattKing · May 12, 2022

flavio81 said:
- Fuji (Provia, Velvia, etc, and the fuji-made C41 film that is still sold in europe and japan)

There is some question whether Fuji are currently doing any film manufacturing.
That may be temporary.

MattKing · May 12, 2022

And the Andy Church comments were made long before the full extent of the pandemic disruptions were understood.
Everything is a struggle right now in the photographic film industry.

pentaxuser · May 12, 2022

In summary, it looks to me like raquelle better "shape up or ship out" If her disposal income for film is as tight as it would seem then shipping out may be her best bet

I fail to see how film or specifically colour film can continue in this way to outstrip disposable income without it all ending in tears for consumers and film makers.

Unless colour film is the new equivalent of "crack cocaine" and most users will do the equivalent of selling wives and kids into white slavery to get their daily fix of it

Colour film may of course be sold almost solely in that stratum of society where disposal income still way exceeds what even this steep price trend might adversely affect. That's good news for the makers of colour films but may crimp any chance of a real film revival. It may be that such an idea of a film revival to any meaningful extent only exists in forums such as ours and that the film makers have no such illusions and will content themselves with supplying a market that serves only those who find themselves ensnared by the famous inelastic demand curve

We in the U.K. already have the "Goodwood Festival of Speed" where very rich people exhibit and race their very old and extremely valuable racing/ sports cars on a former racing circuit called "Goodwood". Thousands pay to watch who can only dream of ever being able to share in such possessions other than vicariously

Might there be a similar "Kodak Festival of Colour Film" in a future that may not be as far away as we think

pentaxuser

mshchem · May 12, 2022

Simple, stop buying color film. Kodak's color film offerings (I am yet to try the Gold) is so amazing they will continue to get my meager business. Portra is miraculous, Ektar is awesome.

I don't know what is happening with Fuji. Never have used their film much other than reversal.

abruzzi · May 13, 2022

I was a little surprised by this thread. I have a freezer full of 35mm C41 film (well, not quite that much, but at least 30-40 rolls.) But I haven't shot 35mm in over a year, mostly doing sheet film and 120 film. I went onto B&H, and in 35mm all they have in stock are the special effects film. But in 120 and sheet, and the standard films are available. Prices are up a bit from a year ago--I'd say about a 20% increase. 5 roll propacks were $50 last year, now they're $60. Even Fuji Pro 400H is in stock, despite Fuji discontinuing it.

So right now, it seems the best option for color shooters is to shoot medium format. I'm assuming that 35mm sales increase has outstripped expectations. I suppose I should scalp my rolls, but instead, I decided to take my MZ-S instead of my ETRSi on vacation next week to try to burn some of these rolls. I'll bring the 4x5 for B&W, though Utah redrock really begs for color.

AgX · May 13, 2022

flavio81 said:
Companies that make color still film:

- Adox (Color Mission 200 and its custom films for lomography)

Adox once tried to make a colour film, and not even on their own. A preliminary version, out of stock, they now sell.
Concerning a future colour film and the topic of this thread: Mirko has stated that colour film prices were still too low to sustain a healthy production for his plant. (Actually a saying of his on all film production since years.)

Adox make no custom films for Lomography as far as known.

Agulliver · May 13, 2022

flavio81 said:
This goes contrary to exactly what has happened during the last two? three? five years...

Demand for C41 still film has skyrocketed, you can check out Henning Serger posts in the last years commenting that demand is far exceeding supply right now. You can see how popular color negative film is out of stock, often.

Yet the prices are increasing and increasing.

If demand increases yet there are only a few suppliers, there isn't any guarantee that prices will drop. More likely to happen it's the opposite. Andrew Church is creating a revolution in economic theory.

The timeline, as I understand it, goes thus:

early 2000s....film sales plummet as digital and phones take over. Many companies get out of the business or fold. Demand for C41 films falls consistently
2010s....Kodak has a lot of woes and mistakes, but does something positive by changing their manufacturing process to permit smaller batches of films. This allows more flexibility in a market which is predicted to still shrink or at best stay level. The result of the reorganisation of the manufacturing process means price increases
2017 Colour film sales start to climb
2018 Kodak and fuji cannot keep up with colour film demand. Additionally, as the market has shrunk, supply of some materials is difficult. Bottlenecks begin, supply of film to retailers becomes sporadic. Kodak begin to take steps to increase production of films including bringing back some old favourites....this investment costs money, adding to the cost of film...
2020....covid hits, supply chains are even more disrupted...Kodak has to change the base material and even 35mm cassette caps....resulting in increased costs....

The prices are increasing at least in part because Kodak are investing in keeping their film production going, enabling it to be flexible in the expanding market.

Andy Church wasn't promising anything regarding prices when I spoke with him, but did say the only possible way prices might decrease in future years was if people bought more film.

Don_ih · May 13, 2022

Agulliver said:
Kodak folk have repeatedly stated that it is not easy for them as their process for making 100ft and 400ft bulk rolls is not as automated as Ilford or Foma's. Hence the bulk rolls of tri-x and T-MAX costing a lot more than equivalent Ilford products.

Kodak's film costs more than Ilford's. Anyway, the topic here is colour film. Kodak offers no bulk rolls of colour still film. Now, it is interesting to think they have trouble spooling 400 foot rolls when they sell motion picture film in that length (and 200 foot rolls).

Donald Qualls · May 13, 2022

MattKing said:
1) if one time you develop a 135 roll in 280 ml, and thus ad X amount of byproducts to that tank, when you discard 70 ml of that in the replenishment process, you are discarding X/4 of the added byproducts;
2) if you develop a 120 roll in 560 ml, and thus ad X amount of byproducts to that tank, when you discard 70 ml of that in the replenishment process, you are discarding X/8 of the added byproducts, or only half of the added byproducts discarded in the 135 case; however
3) if you develop either a 135 roll or 120 roll in 1120 ml, in either case you are discarding X/16 of the added byproducts.

But if you then develop three 135 or four 120 rolls (together) in that same 1120 ml, you're discarding 210 or 280 ml, = 3X/16 or X/4 of the byproducts again. In other words, you only gain consistency by way of lower loading density relative to developer volume. Or are you saying to use a full liter and then only develop a single roll at a time (wasteful -- not of chemicals, but of your time)?

flavio81 · May 13, 2022

Agulliver said:
The timeline, as I understand it, goes thus:

early 2000s....film sales plummet as digital and phones take over. Many companies get out of the business or fold. Demand for C41 films falls consistently
2010s....Kodak has a lot of woes and mistakes, but does something positive by changing their manufacturing process to permit smaller batches of films. This allows more flexibility in a market which is predicted to still shrink or at best stay level. The result of the reorganisation of the manufacturing process means price increases
2017 Colour film sales start to climb
2018 Kodak and fuji cannot keep up with colour film demand. Additionally, as the market has shrunk, supply of some materials is difficult. Bottlenecks begin, supply of film to retailers becomes sporadic. Kodak begin to take steps to increase production of films including bringing back some old favourites....this investment costs money, adding to the cost of film...
2020....covid hits, supply chains are even more disrupted...Kodak has to change the base material and even 35mm cassette caps....resulting in increased costs....

The prices are increasing at least in part because Kodak are investing in keeping their film production going, enabling it to be flexible in the expanding market.

Andy Church wasn't promising anything regarding prices when I spoke with him, but did say the only possible way prices might decrease in future years was if people bought more film.

Ok, thanks for the clarification, now it makes sense. Although i thought the cassette caps thing was just marketing.

Huss · May 13, 2022

One option, and I'm serious about this, is to get an Olympus Pen F. Suddenly you're getting 72 exposures per roll and your film costs are halved!
Plus you can make b!thcin dyp and tryptchs.

Instead of complaining about film costs while slurping down a $6 cappuccino, get creative.

pentaxuser · May 13, 2022

Huss said:
One option, and I'm serious about this, is to get an Olympus Pen F. Suddenly you're getting 72 exposures per roll and your film costs are halved!
Plus you can make b!thcin dyp and tryptchs.

Instead of complaining about film costs while slurping down a $6 cappuccino, get creative.

Is the above advice aimed at raquelle or all of those who are complaining about what appears to be the future trend for colour film pricing?

Any advice for those who do not slurp down $6 cappuccino?

pentaxuser

wiltw · May 13, 2022

flavio81 said:
This goes contrary to exactly what has happened during the last two? three? five years...

Demand for C41 still film has skyrocketed, you can check out Henning Serger posts in the last years commenting that demand is far exceeding supply right now. You can see how popular color negative film is out of stock, often.

Yet the prices are increasing and increasing.

If demand increases yet there are only a few suppliers, there isn't any guarantee that prices will drop. More likely to happen it's the opposite. Andrew Church is creating a revolution in economic theory.

OTOH, even if 2021/2022 volumes are sales are higher than (pick a period, any period) 2011/2012, both periods are severly down in volume compared to 1991/1992 when digital largely did not exist. So, looking at 1990 film manufacturing costs vs. 2020 film manufacturing costs, the volume does not support the low material costs (film substrate, chemicals for emulsion, gelatine costs) of yesteryear
Limitations of manufacturing volume in combination with increased demand overwheliming available film stock supplies merely drives up prices even further, and that will continue the exaggeration in price inflation that we currently have for most everything we buy. Only when supply outstrips demand will prices drop, if costs can drop as volume grows.

Donald Qualls · May 13, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Any advice for those who do not slurp down $6 cappuccino?

Try it. You might like it!

faberryman · May 13, 2022

Does anybody think that complaining about the cost of film on Photrio will cause film prices to go down? Here is a hint: it won't. Film prices will continue to increase over time. The only question is when you will cry uncle, which will vary with your financial circumstances and your level of devotion to film photography.

Donald Qualls · May 13, 2022

wiltw said:
Only when supply outstrips demand will prices drop, if costs can drop as volume grows.

And that won't happen if the manufacturers are paying attention. They're much better off with their consumers complaining about high prices while buying up every roll they can produce, than they would be after over-investing and winding up with a bunch of unsold master rolls or newly installed production capacity standing idle.

In other news, silver nitrate and collodion prices seem remarkably steady...

Huss · May 13, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Any advice for those who do not slurp down $6 cappuccino?

pentaxuser

sip it. make it last longer.

Can anyone give me any prediction or insight on if there will be affordable/accessible 35 mm color film

sasah zib

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Can anyone give me any prediction or insight on if there will be affordable/accessible 35 mm color film

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