Can anyone give me any prediction or insight on if there will be affordable/accessible 35 mm color film

laser

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MattKing said:
Rochester. I'm not sure if is in a part of Building 38, or nearby.
Click to expand...

EK separates the manufactuing process in to separate operations:

Support manufacturing: Estar and Tricellulose acetate

Emulsion materials: silver nitrate, gelatin, salts, dopants and other adenda, each inventory is held

Emusion making and emulsion finishing: crystal formation in gelatin, inventory is held

Emulsion melting in B-38 immediately before for coating

Emulsion coating, setting and drying in B-38, single pass. inventory is held

Slitting to width and perforating , inventory is held

Spool plastic injection moulding, inventory is held

Cassette metal printing, inventory is held

Cassette forming first form small amount of inventory is held

Finishing (confectioning is not a term used in Kodak) Cassette second form, light lock attachment, spooling, end cap attachment, drop into can, attach can top and package into bricks and shipping case. All one continuous operation.


120 is spooled then immediately placed in the barrier wrap, cartoned, cased.

Sheet film is slit and then chopped, bagged, boxed, and cased.

see: www.makingKODAKfilm.com

Bob Shanebrook
 

MattKing

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Thank you Mr. Shanebrook.
(Post bookmarked for future use in the regularly re-appearing "why is Kodak bulk film so expensive?" discussions)
 

laser

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In the 1960s film was made, tested, and sorted. Lots of waste. The manufacturing strategy changed by the 1990's. Only in specification components were in the supply chain. This means no adjustment to almost good enough components so they could be used. So called 6 sigma (Juran and Demming) manufacturing. Only "perfect" components could be sent to the next manufacturing step. This reduced waste and therefore increased manufacturing capacity. Equipment time was not wasted making materials that couldn't be sold. Today, Kodak's waste is small and B-38's coating capicity is huge. Their limitaions are raw material supply, support supply and spooling capacity.

see: www.makingKODAKfilm.com
 

Sirius Glass

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My photographs are priceless so film is affordable. Some here laugh at me because I stock up on film when the prices are good and buy up what I can of discontinued film. So I have a large freezer with film that I have kept from the hoarders.
 

koraks

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laser said:
Today, Kodak's waste is small and B-38's coating capicity is huge.
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No doubt. The question is: after their huge investments (financial and otherwise) into mastering 6S, will they ever be capable of transitioning to high-mix, low-volume manufacturing as the market requires today? Or will they remain stuck at being very good at making (too) large volumes?
Part of the problem of film supply seems to be raw materials/upstream supply chain issues. Part of it certainly seems to be a very significant lack of agility. And that's not just true for Kodak.
 

Paul Howell

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All the folks who coat color are having problems, black and white seems to be in better shape, still lots of shortages, have not seen Ultrafine 100 or 400 in a couple of years, most of Artista is out of stock as well. In terms of affordability, color has crossed that point for me, between cost of film, development, printing just worth the cost, will do the d thing for color.
 

laser

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MattKing said:
Thank you Mr. Shanebrook.
(Post bookmarked for future use in the regularly re-appearing "why is Kodak bulk film so expensive?" discussions)
Click to expand...

I suspect Kodak finishing charges are determined by the actual cost of spooling bulk rolls and the actual cost of spooling magazine film.

I suggest the question could be "why does bulk film cost less than magazine film?" From a perceived value point of view the value is in the imaging ability of film. An enormous amount of technical expertise is needed to design, formulate, and coat modern, high performance film. Users can hardly imagine what it takes to create the imaging characteristics. Photographers certainly would not seriously consider making a roll of color film themselves. It is extremely unlikely they nor I would be successful. Though important, the slitting, perforating, spooling, and packaging is something users can visualize doing themselves. The perceived value of a roll of film should be the imaging capability not the packaging configuration.

From a film designers point of view 99% of the value is in the imaging characteristics, 1% is in the packaging. The actual costs are less because the manufacturing of the desired imaging characteristics is so efficient.

To continue my opening thought: if you consider the effort and risk of hand spooling buying cossetted film is a bargain. That said I appreciate that cost is a barrier. I have spent time bulk loading with my trusty Lloyd Loader.

Just some thoughts.
 

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Eastman Kodak is supplying the entire cinema film market, at least for color. Think about that. Even though most films today are shot and distributed digitally, there are still plenty of folks using film. Alaris has still films etc, relying completely on Eastman Kodak for product.
So many people talk about how poorly Kodak is managed. It's clear to me that there's still plenty of people in Rochester NY that are the very best at what they do.
 

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Without the critical mass of an operation like B-38 I doubt any one could produce affordable film. Certain chemicals require economies of scale. Look at the Estar extrusion like that Smarter Every day, showed us. Presumably there's an acetate operation that is similar.

I hear what you are saying. Companies like Adox etc. What's the saying? " High tide raises all ships" something like that.
 

Sirius Glass

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We did not get supply line issues overnight and they will not be corrected overnight. It will just take time whether or not we have the patience for it.
 

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Why is Kodak bulk film so expensive?
 

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mshchem said:
Eastman Kodak is supplying the entire cinema film market, at least for color.
Click to expand...

If things turn out OK, most likely Adox and ORWO will issue color cinema film, too, the latter, pretty soon (they say July)
 

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Down Under

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Like poster #9, my crystal ball is out for a CLA. We now live in a dismal era where even B&W film is hideously expensive, bulk rolls now costing the same as (or even a little more than) cassette stock. Here in Australia I've not seen bulk color film sold in the few remaining photo retail outlets we have left. Yes, I can order from overseas, but in the USA and Britain overseas postage costs are so high, transporting the stuff to Down Under easily eats up the savings I would make, given the sad value of our Ozzydolla (US$0.70.1 US cents = AUD$1 when I last checked earlier this week), so for us, buying from across The Big Pond is unaffordable and a memory from the past.

Now and then I luck into a roll of long-expired bulk film. A few months ago I was wandering thru an Old Wares place in Melbourne and came across a bulk roll of Tri-X (1982) and one of Technical Pan (1987) for AUD$25 each. Of course I grabbed them. The TXP 100-footer is badly fogged but can still be scanned with a little effort - newly painted battleship grey isn't my preferred tone, so I've given up on it. The TP (150 feet of it, an unexpected bonus) is as good as the day it was bottled and sealed and I happen to have a huge supply of Phenidone at home, so I'm set for my few remaining years. So yes, I'm one of the lucky ones.

Color films occasionally turns up here and there, often in charity shops, but its storage is unknown and it can be a mixed bag. Good and rotten.

These days I do most of my film photography, which is very little of it, when I go overseas. In June I will be off to Asia again for two months of happy wandering and casual shooting. But no film camera coming with me this time. Airport X-ray security is now too potent for my liking and sadly, my time of going around with film cameras has come to an end. So it goes.
 
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ozmoose said:
Airport X-ray security is now too potent for my liking and sadly, my time of going around with film cameras has come to an end. So it goes.
Click to expand...
Why not send your film to the hotel you'll be staying at? I do this when I travel domestically. That way, there's no worring about x-rays, hand-inspections, or carrying it around.
 

pentaxuser

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flavio81 said:
Why is Kodak bulk film so expensive?
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I think that laser tried to answer this in his #34 above but I confess to feeling that I was unable to follow it. I wasn't sure if he was giving reasons why it is obvious why Kodak charges more for bulk rolls than for cassettes or why he could not see the reasons why either

So, sorry laser but would you be able to make it clearer what the reason is/reasons are for Kodak bulk rolls being more expensive than cassettes and what it is about Kodak's bulk rolling facilities that make this so and why in the downsizing of at least some if its facilities to match current demand it has not been able to downsize its bulk rolling facility to match the new reality of demand.

I think it was the case that even after the collapse of demand for film Kodak bulk rolls were cheaper than it cassettes but this changed relatively recently. By that I mean I am sure I read the long thread of complaints about this reversal of the price relationship relatively recently and certainly after the serious dip in demand for film due to the arrival of digital. I had definitely been a subscriber for a few years when this complain arose and I only joined after the fall in film sales had already been making serious inroads into the demand for film

Thanks

pentaxuser
 

MattKing

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Let me translate.
The only reason that the individual cassettes are as inexpensive as they are is because all the finishing is done on a totally mechanized and highly efficient line.
If you have to finish bulk rolls, it is done in a much, much, much more expensive (per roll) manual way.
 

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Quoting myself because this may not be the case any longer. I was at a Walmart tonight and decided to see if they had any film. Not only did they not have Superia 400, the peg for it was gone as well. That doesn't bode well since in the recent past the peg was still there even if it was empty.

Chris
 

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I heard that Walmart lets you pay for the film, they will scan the unused film and put it on a CD, buy you cannot leave the store with the film, because the store has a policy of not returning negatives.
 

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raquelle said:
It seems impossible
Click to expand...

raquelle said:
I've learned, over time, that few things related to film photography are impossible. One day I had Adox MCC 110 papers, not long after that, they were gone.
Click to expand...

I buy film from Walmart all the time.....online. They just ship directly from the 3rd party sellers who have it, there's nothing film related on their store shelves.
 

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I just took a look at B&H and was shocked at how little color film is available, and half of what they list is out of stock. I rarely shoot color and when I do it's 4x5. I recently bought some chemicals so I can try processing my own, which should save a lot of money. I've been processing b&w for three years now and it's easy. I don't see color film ever become less expensive than it is, and it will probably only increase in cost which will further slow demand. I suppose I'm one of the reasons for that in that I shoot b&w in film cameras (or wet plate!) and only do color with digital.


Kent in SD
 

flavio81

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Matt, i was trolling you, as per your previous post.

Now, going into "serious mode", yes, this makes sense. HOWEVER, Eastman 35mm movie film is packaged in 'bulk', often in 400ft, with two possible core types. I assume this is an automated operation as well.

For example:

KODAK VISION3 250D Color Negative Film 5207 / SP718 / 35 mm x 400 ft roll / On Core / BH-1866
has a price of $316.56, according to Kodak's price list for the US of A.

That would be about $80 for 100ft, which is very reasonable for a state-of-the-art film.

Perhaps we should get back to reloading cine film, like the original 35mm (leica) users did, or like the pro photographers in the Soviet Union did. Seattle FilmWorks anyone?
 

MattKing

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Movie film doesn't have the frame numbers. And that would not be good for the educational market, which historically was the major target of 100 ft rolls.
To make it work, you need enough volume to be able to afford to mechanize it, in order to get the price low enough, in order to get enough volume.
You see the problem.
If Eastman Kodak had excess finishing capacity, instead of excess capacity in the other areas, you might see bulk film again.
 
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