Camera Rescue: New film photography survey

[Agulliver]

I discovered in the early 2000s that ebay.de was a really good place to buy photo gear. The choice was vast, sellers had lots of feedback and knew how to pack/post items well. It's still the case that one can find loads of photo gear from German sellers.

 

[Henning Serger]

This open access approach sounds highly commendable. Otherwise there is the danger of those who have something to contribute "falling between" an area of experience or knowledge.

Yes, we have made the best experiences with this concept. All can learn frome each other. The beginners are happy to learn from the experienced photographers, the experienced photographers enjoy giving advice to beginners who are really interested, and experienced / professionals are also learning from each other. Very interesting is also that everyone has his own style, is good in certain techniques and so on. So everyone can really expand his horizon.
And it is so much better to talk to others in person (not via internet), and to look at original pictures (prints and slides), and not on inferior computer screen pictures.
I can highly recommend to organise local / regional photographer meetings. It is really worth it.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Agulliver]

This open access approach sounds highly commendable. Otherwise there is the danger of those who have something to contribute "falling between" an area of experience or knowledge.

Or you're looked down upon because you use the "wrong" brand of camera. I tried a camera club as a teenager in the 80s and was basically ridiculed for owning a Praktica SLR. If it wasn't a Nikon or Canon, possibly a higher end Minolta, they weren't interested.

I like the scene Henning describes. Everyone welcome regardless of equipment, experience, style of photography.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Or you're looked down upon because you use the "wrong" brand of camera. I tried a camera club as a teenager in the 80s and was basically ridiculed for owning a Praktica SLR. If it wasn't a Nikon or Canon, possibly a higher end Minolta, they weren't interested.

Thankfully I've managed to avoid camera clubs so far. There is some incredibly misleading negative discussion about film and darkroom online and in general I try and avoid 'gear talk' if I come across someone using an DSLR etc. - not that I'm anti-digital.

 

[Kodachromeguy]

Or you're looked down upon because you use the "wrong" brand of camera. I tried a camera club as a teenager in the 80s and was basically ridiculed for owning a Praktica SLR. If it wasn't a Nikon or Canon, possibly a higher end Minolta, they weren't interested.
.

Attitudes have barely changed in the online photo world. Look at the big D review site. The "full frame" trolls pounce on anyone using a different format, film, or any equipment that is even slightly out of the mainstream (their comfort zone). Differentness is a threatening concept.

 

[wyofilm]

Yes, we have made the best experiences with this concept. All can learn frome each other. The beginners are happy to learn from the experienced photographers, the experienced photographers enjoy giving advice to beginners who are really interested, and experienced / professionals are also learning from each other. Very interesting is also that everyone has his own style, is good in certain techniques and so on. So everyone can really expand his horizon.
And it is so much better to talk to others in person (not via internet), and to look at original pictures (prints and slides), and not on inferior computer screen pictures.
I can highly recommend to organise local / regional photographer meetings. It is really worth it.

Best regards,
Henning

Sounds like a nice place to be for photography.

 

[jtk]

???
The German photo market has been for decades one of the highest developed and most attractive photo markets worldwide, because photography has always been very popular here, and more popular compared to most other countries.
Or in other words:
A very / relatively high percentage of the population here in Germany is interested and active in photography. And the number / percentage of very committed enthusiasts and professionals here is higher compared to most other countries. For a very long time the photography spendings per capita / per photographer in Germany has been the second highest in the world, only surpassed by Japan.
Germany is the biggest photography market in Europe by a big margin. I know lots of photography companies which have a sales volume in Germany which is as big as the sales volume of all other European countries combined. So Germany 1 : rest of Europe 1.
We have still more than 20 (!!) different print photography magazines here on the market, including one completely dedicated to film photography.
And the collapse of the digital camera market is not so strong here compared to other markets, the German market has demonstrated better relative stability. The same is valid for the film photography market, which has been much more stable in Germany during the "digital revolution" compared to almost all other countries.

And conerning our photographer meetings:
They are open for all photographers: Beginners, advanced amateurs, fully dedicated enthusiasts, semi-professionals, professionals, lab-owners, photography teachers, book publishers etc. All these types of photographers have been at our meetings. For example one regular member of our meetings has worked as a professional photographer for Volkswagen for decades (has used also Hasselblad at works and privately). Another one is regularly exhibiting his work and publishing books successfully, using a Leica M6 and a Hasselblad 500 C/M.

Best regards,
Henning

Thanks. You do seem to be saying that Germany is a hobbiest enclave...ie that it is big popular market.

 

[jtk]

And it is so much better to talk to others in person (not via internet), and to look at original pictures (prints and slides), and not on inferior computer screen pictures.
I can highly recommend to organise local / regional photographer meetings. It is really worth it.

Best regards,
Henning

That "inferiorcompter screen" comment might explain the lack of notable photographic artists in Germany.

Or...can you provide links to change my "notable" perception?

 

[George Mann]

That "inferiorcompter screen" comment might explain the lack of notable photographic artists in Germany.

I must add my 2 cents to this query.

First, digital is by it's very nature a flawed artificial facsimile, whereas film is a direct capture.

Second, so-called digital photography does not strictly meet the definition of photography, but does meet the definition of graphic arts.

Third, the claimed lack of notable photo artists in Germany is largely irrelevant to the format they choose to shoot with.

And finally, I prefer facts over opinions, but you are free to form your own.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...digital is by it's very nature a flawed artificial facsimile, whereas film is a direct capture...so-called digital photography does not strictly meet the definition of photography, but does meet the definition of graphic arts...I prefer facts over opinions...

That third statement, coming on the heels of the first two, confirms an extremely dangerous level of irony deficiency in this poster.

 

[George Mann]

That third statement, coming on the heels of the first two, confirms an extremely dangerous level of irony deficiency in this poster.

Character bashing without any facts to back it up seems to be your MO!

In any case, it is a weak, nitpicky attempt!

 

[George Mann]

The flawed part may be arguable depending on ones viewpoint, but I have yet to see a digital image that shows me otherwise (not even the best film scans).

 

[Helge]

That "inferiorcompter screen" comment might explain the lack of notable photographic artists in Germany.

Or...can you provide links to change my "notable" perception?

The resolution, colour gamut, real contrast and image stability of an LCD or OLED is far, far inferior to print or projected slide.
All you have to do is hold one up against the other, to see the crystal clear difference.
No need to do a detailed spec breakdown.

The tragedy is of course that many people confuse different/unfamiliar/older with poorer. Even when there is an unmistakable difference, they go into lazy auto/investment protectment mode, and pronounce the difference as bad.

 

[Helge]

I must add my 2 cents to this query.

First, digital is by it's very nature a flawed artificial facsimile, whereas film is a direct capture.

Second, so-called digital photography does not strictly meet the definition of photography, but does meet the definition of graphic arts.

Third, the claimed lack of notable photo artists in Germany is largely irrelevant to the format they choose to shoot with.

And finally, I prefer facts over opinions, but you are free to form your own.

While I agree with your general sentiment, you venture into mysticism, handwaving and token authenticity worship.
Seemingly without having a good grasp of the real technical differences.

That is unfortunately something you share with 90% of film proponents, making it easy for many people to dismiss the stance and film photography in general.

 

[GLS]

Thanks for the link. I completed the survey.

 

[Agulliver]

Thankfully I've managed to avoid camera clubs so far. There is some incredibly misleading negative discussion about film and darkroom online and in general I try and avoid 'gear talk' if I come across someone using an DSLR etc. - not that I'm anti-digital.

There is still a camera/photo club based in the town where I live, but it seems to have "gone digital". I'm also not against digital, I use a DLSR and compact digital camera in addition to my film cameras - there are no "shelf queens" everything gets used. But the club also seems mostly to be about competitions and that's not my thing either. I'd like to be part of a scene where I can learn new things. I've been at this since the late 70s but I don't know everything. I probably have knowledge and ideas that I could pass on to others too.

 

[Henning Serger]

Thanks. You do seem to be saying that Germany is a hobbiest enclave...ie that it is big popular market.

You either haven't fully understood my explanation or you are misinterpreting it. I have written that Germany has been and is in general a big and important photo market - including professional photography (more professionals here in relative terms to most other photo markets). The number of dedicated photographers is very high and higher than in most other markets in relation to the whole national population.

Regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

That "inferiorcompter screen" comment might explain the lack of notable photographic artists in Germany.

Concerning the first part of your sentence:
Well educated photographers have eyes to see and know about physics and technical limitations. And they know very well about the severe technical limitations of computer screens concerning viewing photographs on them:
1. Extremely low resolution: The usual 2k monitors have only 2 MP, the 4k models offer only 8 MP. Which is only a very small fraction of what a print (both from digital and film) or a slide deliver. Spending huge amounts of money for a 24, 36, 45, 60 or more MP camera, and then destroying all this expensive resolution potential by the limits of a monitor, does not make much sense.
Therefore photographers make prints when they want to use the quality their equipment offers (digital and film).
2. The discrete nature of LCD / LED elements prevent monitors from delivering real full halftones (as optical enlarging and slides can offer). That results in not so good tonality and colour rendition.
3. There is no depth in monitor pictures. Optical prints on silver-halide photopapers and slides offer a much much better depth and three-dimensional rendition (because of the several emulsion layers and physical depth of the medium) in comparison.

There are good reasons why (the best) photographers do not exhibit their work on monitors in exhibtions. And when they want to sell it.

Concerning the second part of your sentence:
It demonstrates both your low level of knowledge about well reputed / famous photographers and Germany. Indicates that you have never looked at the work of famous / well known German photographers like Gursky, von Unwerth, Lindbergh, Lebeck, Lagerfeld, Niedringhaus, Rosing, Klemm, Koelbl, Rakete, Becher, Struth, Teller, Ruff, Newton, Tesch, Nicht, Schulz, Zalenga, Ripke, Münch, Ernst, Kakareko, Obenhoff, Peschak, Becker, Bartels, Gundlach, Höfer, Horst, Sander, Tillmans, Steinert, Freund, Häusser. Just to name a few in no order. There are hundreds more.

Regards,
Henning

 

[jtk]

You either haven't fully understood my explanation or you are misinterpreting it. I have written that Germany has been and is in general a big and important photo market - including professional photography (more professionals here in relative terms to most other photo markets). The number of dedicated photographers is very high and higher than in most other markets in relation to the whole national population.

Regards,
Henning

Maybe my "misunderstanding" has to do with your notion that digital photography, including inkjet printing, is somehow inferior to film. That's a weird place to begin your thesis.

Please provide some links to those 20 German photo magazines (one of which is film only) ? If you did that we would be able to visually appraise German photography, rather than simply having to believer assertions from a nationalist marketeer.

Seems like you are positioning Germany against the rest of the world.

 

[Henning Serger]

Sounds like a nice place to be for photography.

It is indeed. I have started it about 12 years ago, and at that time I had not imagined that it will be growing and getting so strong over such a long time span.
As said above: I can highly recommend to start such meetings in your regions, too.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Maybe my "misunderstanding" has to do with your notion that digital photography, including inkjet printing, is somehow inferior to film. That's a weird place to begin your thesis.

Nonsense! I have not written at all that digital photography is inferior to film. Learn reading!

Please provide some links to those 20 German photo magazines (one of which is film only) ? If you did that we would be able to visually appraise German photography, rather than simply having to believer assertions from a nationalist marketeer.

I am not a 'national marketeer'. Stop spreading such nonsense.

The one for film only is PhotoKlassik. I am one of their authors. The other German print photography magazines are (in no particular order): Photographie, Foto Magazin, Color Foto, LFI, Photonews, Photo Presse, Naturfoto, Photo international, Foto Hits, Schwarzweiss Magazin, Fotoforum, Docma, Brennpunkt, c't Fotografie, Profifoto, Chip Foto Video, digitalphoto, d-pixx, Canon Foto, N Photo, ColorFoto fotocommunity, Stern Fotografie, Portraitmagazin.
And there are some further......You see, that list contains of even more than 20.

Seems like you are positioning Germany against the rest of the world.

Again complete BS! You have started telling fake news about Germany here (and you already did that recently in an other thread).
I have given the members here just the correct information.
I am not positioning Germany against anyone. You have described Germany in a completey wrong way. You don't know the country at all. You have never been here.

Stop your troll behaviour!

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

???
The German photo market has been for decades one of the highest developed and most attractive photo markets worldwide, because photography has always been very popular here, and more popular compared to most other countries.
Or in other words:
A very / relatively high percentage of the population here in Germany is interested and active in photography. And the number / percentage of very committed enthusiasts and professionals here is higher compared to most other countries. For a very long time the photography spendings per capita / per photographer in Germany has been the second highest in the world, only surpassed by Japan.
Germany is the biggest photography market in Europe by a big margin. I know lots of photography companies which have a sales volume in Germany which is as big as the sales volume of all other European countries combined. So Germany 1 : rest of Europe 1.
We have still more than 20 (!!) different print photography magazines here on the market, including one completely dedicated to film photography.
And the collapse of the digital camera market is not so strong here compared to other markets, the German market has demonstrated better relative stability. The same is valid for the film photography market, which has been much more stable in Germany during the "digital revolution" compared to almost all other countries.

And conerning our photographer meetings:
They are open for all photographers: Beginners, advanced amateurs, fully dedicated enthusiasts, semi-professionals, professionals, lab-owners, photography teachers, book publishers etc. All these types of photographers have been at our meetings. For example one regular member of our meetings has worked as a professional photographer for Volkswagen for decades (has used also Hasselblad at works and privately). Another one is regularly exhibiting his work and publishing books successfully, using a Leica M6 and a Hasselblad 500 C/M.

Best regards,
Henning

Any German photo magazines printed (translated for web display) in English?

 

[jtk]

Any German photo magazines printed (translated for web display) in English?

Yes, that would be helpful.

If I'm not mistaken Henning says Germany has 20 photo magazines, one of which is dedicated to film.

Would be easy to post those links, trusting Google to translate. The pictures wouldn't need translation.

 

[Helge]

You’re a weird guy jtk. Sometimes you seem very reasonable and intelligent. At other times you frankly write some retarded, misanthropic stuff.

It’s not for nothing that the worlds premier photo expo is in Germany, even when most of the actual corporations has moved to Japan and to a lesser extent the US.

 

[George Mann]

While I agree with your general sentiment, you venture into mysticism, handwaving and token authenticity worship.
Seemingly without having a good grasp of the real technical differences.

Actually, my engineering background (digital as well as analog expertise) gives me a solid foundation to base my findings on.