Camera for my son

Chan Tran · Jun 6, 2006

I would say the best bet is to give him the A-1. It's good enough. If you were to buy him another it has to be better than the A-1 and not less as it would short change his talent. But for another camera that is more capable than the A-1? I think the requirement should come from him after using the A-1 for a while.

Claire Senft · Jun 6, 2006

Make his camera a fully manual type. A camera with the capabilities of a Pentax K1000 would be a good choice. Get a seperate light meter. I beliive by starting out fully manual camera without any auto exposure or auto focus is going to help your son to learn more quickly the principles of photography that he needs to know to have adequate control and to be able to learn from his mistakes.

JBrunner · Jun 6, 2006

Add another body and a couple of lenses to the Canon stable. Youve already got some, so having a "spare" body and greater lens selection, is economical, and it makes good sense to keep another body. because the one you have will go out before the lenses. When he won't get out of your MF stuff, then you can worry about something else. I shot with the same AE-1 from the age of 13 to the age of 30.

Relmhill · Jun 6, 2006

Here's an inexpensive Pentax K-mount kit.
About 1/2 the way down the page. The Voigtlander VSL43.

http://www.photovillage.com/html/voigtlander.html

Roger Hicks · Jun 6, 2006

I really disagree about the fully manual/separate meter route. Intellectually, it's attractive, and it's the way many of us learned. That doesn't mean it's the best route for a 10-year-old in 2006.

I don't know the boy in question, obviously (though I like him already!) but I DO know, both from teaching in schools and from young friends 10-15 who have taken an interest in photography, that if it gets too much like hard work, there are far too many other distractions available and they will be taken.

Cheers,

Roger

get_me_a_gun · Jun 6, 2006

I would reccomend a Nikon FM, its a sturdy, reliable, and very simple camera. The meter is very simple, (+), (0), and (-). The only thing powered by the battery is the meter. They are reasonably priced at around $150.

Hope you got the info you wanted,
Lisa

Markok765 · Jun 6, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
I really disagree about the fully manual/separate meter route. Intellectually, it's attractive, and it's the way many of us learned. That doesn't mean it's the best route for a 10-year-old in 2006.

I don't know the boy in question, obviously (though I like him already!) but I DO know, both from teaching in schools and from young friends 10-15 who have taken an interest in photography, that if it gets too much like hard work, there are far too many other distractions available and they will be taken.

Cheers,

Roger

Its not distracting, i have only used manual film cameras with a lightmeter and im only 13

raucousimages · Jun 6, 2006

Any good 35mm and let him run with it. He will let you know when he is ready for more.

DBP · Jun 6, 2006

The more I think about it the more I think a TLR might be the right answer. I've always found looking into a hood at ground glass makes me more aware of the whole frame, and if he uses one of the old red window advances he won't blow through film so fast. But I expect to go shooting sometime soon with a ten-year-old and matching Argus C-3s, so I will let you know about the metering issue. I plan to use Sunny 16 with him.

bob01721 · Jun 6, 2006

If he's already able to use the Canon A-1... and you don't mind the "permanent loan"... then I can't think of a better solution.

gnashings · Jun 6, 2006

Perhaps I am biased because I really didn't like the A-1 I have (no particular technical shortcoming - just not to my liking), but I would definitely second and third the suggestions of all the K1000, FTb, etc. Of course, you already have FD lenses - so an FTb is the obvious choice. I think simplicitymay be an asset, since the highly electronics-laden A1 is a bit complex.
I learned as a kid using a Lubitel (I was 11 when my dad got sick of me stealing his Zenit... jeez, this sounds almost familiar - except I didn't show any talent), and the Zenits simple needle on the top board of the body and exposure "calculator" around the rewind knob taught me how things relate to each other much better than any flashing numbers in the viewfinder ever could. Simple, reliable, and basic is, in my humble opinion, the way to go. I don't an FTb would be a talent-strangling step down by any means - actually, I think someone justlearning would be better served and get better esuylts from a camera like that. Don't you worry - he will end up with your A1 sooner or later

Peter.

Roger Hicks · Jun 7, 2006

Dear Marko,

Fair enough. I don't know him and I don't know you. Both of you are clearly a good bit livelier than average. But I have met a lot of young photographers who DON'T want to make the effort you have.

Congratulations on the exhibition, by the way. And if I were you, I WOULD take my camera.

You say you'd use a Super Takumar. What camera are you using? (Sorry if you've posted this elsewhere and I've not seen it).

Finally, could I possibly persuade you to use capital 'I' instead of lower case? I know it's only a convention but it does make it a lot easier for old farts to read your posts and indeed to take you more seriously.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

Claire Senft · Jun 7, 2006

Roger, I would opine that by 10 years old humans are already displayimg traits that they will show thru out their lives. Anyone lacking sufficent interest in learning the basics will go no place in any skill that requires perseverance. These traits are both genetic and enviromental in their formation.

What skills are satisfying that do not require perseverance? If you like to play soccer then some training and practice are in order. If you enjoy fishing and want to catch some fish then some learning is and patience are required.

I will concede that using automated equipment may be helpful to spark a person's interest in photography but that such usage without the underlying foundation of craft will be determental in th near and far run.

Why dumb down photography? As an older person I learned as a child that if I wanted to go someplace my bicycle or feet would have get me there. Was I worse off for having the exercise? Are children that are taken every place by mom or dad or they do not participate in something beter off? Effort is required and effort satisfies the a person's being.

Shawn Rahman · Jun 7, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
I really disagree about the fully manual/separate meter route. Intellectually, it's attractive, and it's the way many of us learned. That doesn't mean it's the best route for a 10-year-old in 2006.

I don't know the boy in question, obviously (though I like him already!) but I DO know, both from teaching in schools and from young friends 10-15 who have taken an interest in photography, that if it gets too much like hard work, there are far too many other distractions available and they will be taken.

Cheers,

Roger

I couldn't agree with Roger more (no pun intended).

I've always thought that absolute beginners should go with as much automation as possible. It can indeed become too much work if the beginner had to figure out everything. I think composition is the first and most important thing one should learn about photography, followed next by exposure and everything else technical after that.

removed account4 · Jun 7, 2006

hkr said:
I couldn't agree with Roger more (no pun intended).

I've always thought that absolute beginners should go with as much automation as possible. It can indeed become too much work if the beginner had to figure out everything. I think composition is the first and most important thing one should learn about photography, followed next by exposure and everything else technical after that.

me too!

i used a kodak flashfun "point and shoot" that my mom gave me from the time i was 7 or so until i got a kodak k1000 when i was 14 or 15 ... the ability to just shoot, and not "deal" with anything else is ideal.

i would even opt for something totally automatic like a high end point and shoot (do they make them with a flash sync? ). some of them churn out better negatives than "high end" 35mm slrs. after all it isn't really the camera (just a recording device) its what you can do with it ...

-john

ps. the only reason why i got the k1000 was because it was a requirement for a school photo course.

Roger Hicks · Jun 7, 2006

Dear Claire,

We're into opinions here and I hesitate to argue too much. My own view is that a little initial 'dumbing down' is no bad thing. After all, we do not expect small children to read Proust or to solve quadratic equations: other things come before this.

You are quite right that the persevering child will persevere and the inattentive child will drift away. I am talking about the middle ground, the waverers, and I stand by my view.

I do not know your age, but even when I was teaching in schools some 25 years ago there was more pressure for distraction that in my own schooldays, and from what I see things have gone further down the same road; last week we had as a house guest a photography teacher working with 16- to 19-year-olds, and he said nothing that led me to change this suspicion.

My view is 'catch the waverer'. Yours, to be harsh, could be characterized as 'scare off all but the dedicated'. This is where we differ.

Cheers,

Roger

Claire Senft · Jun 7, 2006

I would not wish to scare off anyone from any worthy activity. I would wish to concentrate on those who want to learn. Obviously, one should start from what is most important. Rational people can have widely diverging views on what is most important. For me personally where the tripod is placed would be high on my list..unless not using a tripod would improve the photo.

Claire Senft · Jun 7, 2006

I have been tjinking quite a bit about this topic today. My responses started off trying to answer a question about a young lad who has already shown a serious interest in exploring photography...at least such was my impression.

To teach photography one would, I believe, need to determine what the student hopes to learn. One could find that out fairly easily by showing them some originals and good samples of various levels of types of photographic work. I believe that one of the most rewarding involvements would be to show those who are interested in how to capture the memories in their lives..children growing, weddings, graduations, vacations, friends and pets for for example. This I believe can be taught and learned in in fairly simple fool proof manner with minimal time and capital investment. But what is the main criteria for doing this? In my mind it is a person that sees value in taking the time and effort to teach or learn these things.. I beleive that a large majority of people will find this meaningful during their life. I also believe it can be done with very satisfactory result with a point and shoot and dx loading film...say 400 speed color negative film.. or its digital equivalent. It could be demosnstrated very simply that a zoom lens may be helpful. These photographs, would with the passage of time, become among the person's most treasured possessions. They would not need to learn a lot. Practice though would be very helpful to them.

Milt Freeman, the economist, often stated "there is no free lunch". So is someone hungry and will they work for food?

JBrunner · Jun 7, 2006

I think that any photographic tools are a gateway to harder drugs, if the monkey bites. I have "helped" more than one person fall from casual digital snapshooter, to LF freak, with full blown G.A.S. and APUGADD.

Markok765 · Jun 7, 2006

JBrunner said:
I think that any photographic tools are a gateway to harder drugs, if the monkey bites. I have "helped" more than one person fall from casual digital snapshooter, to LF freak, with full blown G.A.S. and APUGADD.

Could you help me do that?

Roger Hicks · Jun 7, 2006

Dear Claire,

Ah, well, there is a fundamental difference between us. I am an unreconstructed Keynesian, which means that I tend to hold up cloves of garlic, crosses, etc., when confronted with Friedmannites (one 'n' or two in this form?).

A young beginner does not necessarily know what he wants to learn; indeed, many of us of riper years are still not entirely sure. Hence the two grades in the Peter Pan club, open to all those who do not know what they want to do when they grow up. Senior membership is open only to those under 21; junior membership is for those over 21.

It seems fairly clear to me that a 10-year-old still life photographer is not primarily interested in glorified family snapshots: sorry to be harsh, but unless I misread your second post, this seems to me to be what you are talking about. I freely accept that I may well have misread it: it's around 22:00 here in France, and magret de canard with new potatoes and courgettes with garlic and onion, accompanied by a sparkling Saumur, followed with a cheese course with a red Saumur, and a brandy afterwards, will not exactly sharpen the wits.

I repeat: I try to bring in the waverer. I see no need to ignore them in favour of "those who want to learn", except to give the latter all the help I can (and they will ask). I have enough help left over, I hope, for those who are not sure what (or if) they want to learn.

Cheers,

Roger

DBP · Jun 7, 2006

With regard to the discussion between Roger and Claire. I worry that current methods of child raising, at least as I see it in the US, tend to make children overreliant on outside sources for answers. As a child, and I am about a generation younger, I made some of my own toys and was left to my own devices much of the time. As an adult, I am comfortable attacking a new problem with a couple of books and some tools. I worry that a child raised on organized sports and games will lack the ability to improvise. I've seen some signs of this in people I have trained in my field who are ten or more years younger. This concern carries over into my approach to showing people photography (and other things). I believe that there is value and beauty to learning how things fit together that carries over into generating a greater sense of accomplishment and reward in the long run. We may miss some potential photographers that way. But I doubt that they would have been more than snapshooters in the end.

As a sailor, I have seen more than one child turn away from sailing because it was too slow and too hard. And I know of no way to make it easier.

DBP · Jun 7, 2006

Roger Hicks said:
it's around 22:00 here in France, and magret de canard with new potatoes and courgettes with garlic and onion, accompanied by a sparkling Saumur, followed with a cheese course with a red Saumur, and a brandy afterwards, will not exactly sharpen the wits

Wow, is that home cooking? How do you feel about guests?

Roger Hicks · Jun 7, 2006

DBP said:
As a sailor, I have seen more than one child turn away from sailing because it was too slow and too hard. And I know of no way to make it easier.

Ah, but with photography, we CAN!

As for sailing, my father sold his last yacht in his mid-to-late 70s, without ever persuading me that there was any fun in it. He's 79 on the 12th of June.

Yup, that's home cooking. Next time you're in France give us a call (admittedly we're 200 miles south-south-west of Paris -- about one second into the western hemisphere, south of Loudun).

As well as photography, Frances and I have done four cookbooks...

Cheers,

Roger

Markok765 · Jun 7, 2006

All of you are forgetting to also teach him to develop! suggestions: tri-x and d76 ilford multigrade papers.

Camera for my son

Chan Tran

Claire Senft

JBrunner

Moderator

Relmhill

Roger Hicks

get_me_a_gun

Markok765

raucousimages

DBP

bob01721

gnashings

Roger Hicks

Claire Senft

Shawn Rahman

removed account4

Roger Hicks

Claire Senft

Claire Senft

JBrunner

Moderator

Markok765

Roger Hicks

DBP

DBP

Roger Hicks

Markok765

Camera for my son

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