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jtk

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My point in the original post was that I admired a high-price, prestigious gallery for calling an inkjet print just that, not "giclee" (an invented term to make inkjet prints sound less mundane), or "archival pigment," a term that might apply to any number of graphic arts prints such as silkscreens, woodcuts or lithographs. Here is a gallery that sells some photography along with high-end, big-bucks art at nose-bleed prices. They think the prints do not need fancy descriptive language to merit the prices they are asking.

No "prestigious gallery" uses "giclee"...the term was used years ago to address the bad pigments of yesteryear. Epson and then Canon dealt with that. "Giclee" is still used by tourist galleries.
I once viewed a short film about POLLOCK"S "technique". It was made at his EAST HAMPTON,LONG ISLAND HOME. It showed him taking a 4x8 piece of plywood out of his pickup truck and placing it on the sand at low tide. He then climbed up onto the dock and proceeded to throw paints from gallon cans and dripping more with a large brush. He then sat and smoked a few cigarettes while the paint dried. He then took it home and placed it upon a table saw and cut it into a few pieces which no doubt were sold to "art lovers" at exorbitant prices. So a four year old could do it BUT could pick up neither the plywood nor the paint cans nor drive home. P.S. the allusion to POLLOCK was to draw a parallel.
that "parallel" would have worked for Archie Bunker twenty years ago.
 

Sirius Glass

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Don't know about you, but I'll trust and prefer the tastes of those who can fork over a million for a bit of paper or fabric they want to hang on a wall over the tastes of people who can't be bothered to pay $10 for it...

But that's just me.

+1
 
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jtk

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"Giclee" is a copy-written term, part of a thirty-year-old marketing scheme .

When that label is used today, decades after Epson's early quick-fading (several years) ink was replaced by archival pigments, it suggests intent to fool ignorant potential buyers.

Following is an overly generous Wikipedia entry that fails to notice today's casual misuse of the term:

Origins[edit]
The word giclée was adopted by Jack Duganne around 1990. He was a printmaker working at Nash Editions. He wanted a name for the new type of prints they were producing on a modified Iris printer, a large-format, high-resolution industrial prepress proofing inkjet printer on which the paper receiving the ink is attached to a rotating drum and that they had adapted for fine-art printing. He was specifically looking for a word that would differentiate them from regular commercial Iris prints then used as proofs in the commercial printing industry. "Giclée" is based on the French word gicleur, the French technical term for a jet or a nozzle, and the verb coming from it "gicler" (to squirt out). "Une giclée" (noun) means a spurt of some liquid.[3][4][5] The French verb form gicler means to spray, spout, or squirt. Duganne settled on the noun giclée. [6][7][8]

Current usage[edit]
Besides its original association with Iris prints, the word giclée has come to be somewhat loosely associated with other types of inkjet printing including processes that use dyes or fade-resistant, archival inks (pigment-based), and archival substrates primarily produced on Canon, Epson, HP and other large-format printers.[9] These printers use the CMYK (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black) color process as a base with additional color cartridges for smoother gradient transitions (such as light magenta, light cyan, light and very light gray), up to 12 different inks in top model printers (orange, green, violet (Epson); red, green, blue (HP)) to achieve larger color gamut.[10] A wide variety of substrates on which an image can be printed with such inks is available, including various textures and finishes such as matte photo paper, watercolor paper, cotton canvas, pre-coated canvas, or artist textured vinyl.


By the way, this is the Internet, not the USA.
 
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removed account4

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No "prestigious gallery" uses "giclee"
i was watching the beloved american docu-drama "P@wnS†@rs" the other day and someone
brought in a glicée print. he wanted $$$!. both the owner of the print and the people behind the counter said
"glicée is a high end lithograph" america's favorite prestige galleries uses it :wink:
 
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Don't know about you, but I'll trust and prefer the tastes of those who can fork over a million for a bit of paper or fabric they want to hang on a wall over the tastes of people who can't be bothered to pay $10 for it...
This thread was just more of the same old "stuff" and not worth bothering to participate in until that post. :smile:

Believing rich people exhibit "good taste" is a huuuuge mistake. As that famous exchange went:

"The rich are different from you and me"
"Yes, they have more money."​

To which I'd add one other old chestnut:

"Behind every great fortune is a great crime."​
 

Luckless

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This thread was just more of the same old "stuff" and not worth bothering to participate in until that post. :smile:

Believing rich people exhibit "good taste" is a huuuuge mistake. As that famous exchange went:

"The rich are different from you and me"
"Yes, they have more money."​

To which I'd add one other old chestnut:

"Behind every great fortune is a great crime."​

Never said it was good taste, just that their take on taste was more worth trusting than that of someone who wouldn't pay me for my work anyway...
 
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Never said it was good taste, just that their take on taste was more worth trusting than that of someone who wouldn't pay me for my work anyway...
Which means you value "not good" taste more than the taste of someone who wouldn't pay you for your work. A very lucre-centric approach. You have the potential to become rich. :D
 
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jtk

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why are you "refreshed" by that label?

Personally, I especially like photo silkscreen and have done good business with it (matching Pantone colors in photos).

I agree that "giclee" is a marketing ploy (but as a capitalist I don't mind marketing ); "archival pigment" is a nearly universal museum description for a inkjet pigment print ( a few non-archival INKS proved unstable within a few years, but Epson/Canon's PIGMENTS have proven very stable in common practice for the last 20 years.

I'd like to see Hernandez's work in person.

https://www.kaynegriffincorcoran.com/exhibitions/anthony-hernandez?view=slider#3

That was my immediate response to the OT, which was positive.
what does jackson pollock have to do with calling an ink jet print some fancy name or pigment print or piezography or whatever.
im always amused at people who see JP;s stuff and say " my 4 year old could do that" but ...


Yes, it's amusing that Jackson Pollock got brought up once again.. your point about "4 year old" gets recycled regularly by people who seemingly have never actually seen it.

IMO Pollock's paintings do especially poorly in reproduction...worse arguably than the work of any other painter.

From the press I probably know more about Pollock's tragic personal story than I do about his place among artists ...and I don't particularly "like" his work...wouldn't want it on my wall...but might if I lived in a huge, brightly lit NYC loft and had a lot of parties.

I do occasionally see his paintings somewhere in person... MY RESPONSE to those paintings has always included puzzlement. Puzzlement is a good thing. Pollock has done us a service.
 

jim10219

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i was watching the beloved american docu-drama "P@wnS†@rs" the other day and someone
brought in a glicée print. he wanted $$$!. both the owner of the print and the people behind the counter said
"glicée is a high end lithograph" america's favorite prestige galleries uses it :wink:
I agree with your point. However if I may add, they have digital presses now that are basically a high speed lithographic inspired inkjet printers these days. The Heidelberg Primefire 106, for example, uses 7 colors of inkjet style ink to match 95% of the Pantone book and print up to 2,500 sheets an hour! I highly doubt they were referring to this (since their extreme price and limited production make them exceedingly rare), nor am I suggesting they knew near as much as they tried to seem, but I do find it funny how often technology can make fools out of geniuses, and geniuses out of fools.
 

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Yes, it's amusing that Jackson Pollock got brought up once again.. your point about "4 year old" gets recycled regularly by people who seemingly have never actually seen it.

Indeed. From Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions (the painter Rabo Karabekian responding to an angry mob complaining that their five-year-olds could have done it just as well and made all that money):

“The painting did not exist until I made it,” Karabekian went on. “Now that it does exist, nothing would make me happier than to have it reproduced again and again, and vastly improved upon, by all the five-year-olds in town. I would love for your children to find pleasantly and playfully what it took me many angry years to find.”
 

David A. Goldfarb

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My issue with “archival pigment print” is that there is a historic process that’s long been called “pigment print,” which is akin to carbon printing and the carbro process. I like “pigment inkjet print” because it is more precise and differentiates contemporary digital printing from the historic process that involves pigments embedded in gelatin.
 
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I think the distinction should be between a photograph and a print. Photographs are made with light. Prints are ink (for the purposes of this discussion) laid onto paper. Personally I call my stuff silver gelatin photographs from the darkroom, and "whatever" prints from the stinkjet, that is if I ever sold one. That isn't to say that a photograph has to be analog either. A lightjet for example is a photograph. A digital image is a photograph until it hits the stinkjet, then it becomes a print.

I agree thought that the giclée thing was always disingenuous. Like calling a janitor a custodial engineer. Everyone want to feel special though.....
 

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You mean like people who try to claim their personal definition of 'photograph' is 'the one true photograph', and other people are just pretenders if they use anything else? ...

hi luckless
whose personal definition do you mean, sir john hershel 's?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_photography
i think its just a technical thing needs light, and the negative,
whatever kind it might be, is a stencil. i'll even go so far to say that a shadow cast on a wall
is an impermanent photograph :smile: ink, pigment whatever they might be, if light wasn't involved
( from what i understand ) they are xyzzy prints .. i think they should call them
noteasy prints cause they aren't easy.
 
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removedacct1

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I think the distinction should be between a photograph and a print. Photographs are made with light. Prints are ink (for the purposes of this discussion) laid onto paper. Personally I call my stuff silver gelatin photographs from the darkroom, and "whatever" prints from the stinkjet, that is if I ever sold one. That isn't to say that a photograph has to be analog either. A lightjet for example is a photograph. A digital image is a photograph until it hits the stinkjet, then it becomes a print.

The obvious disdain for anything that isn't made by 100% traditional darkroom processes is far too often visible in remarks like these, and I think its this kind of prejudice that feeds a toxic "Us VS Them" attitude on the forum. Why does it matter what tools were used to create a finished piece, be it pigments, silver, carbon, or whatever?
 
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...Why does it matter what tools were used to create a finished piece, be it pigments, silver, carbon, or whatever?
It matters because those claiming only gelatin silver photography is photography are typically trying to market their work as "special" and "superior" and therefore of more monetary value. That's the only reason it matters. Which is why, in reality, it doesn't matter.
 
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The obvious disdain for anything that isn't made by 100% traditional darkroom processes is far too often visible in remarks like these, and I think its this kind of prejudice that feeds a toxic "Us VS Them" attitude on the forum. Why does it matter what tools were used to create a finished piece, be it pigments, silver, carbon, or whatever?

I don't have any disdain for analog or digital. Who cares? Whatever you are thinking you are putting on me. Ain't true. I am kind of disappointed in your comment Paul. I always thought you were a smart guy and what I wrote was pretty clear...
 
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You mean like people who try to claim their personal definition of 'photograph' is 'the one true photograph', and other people are just pretenders if they use anything else? ...


Jeez. Take a valium or something... Again, you are trying to put something on what I said baed on your own biases. I am just simple defining what it is. Ink on paper or light on paper. Those are different things. Next you will complain if I say a lithograph isn't a photograph.
 

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hi luckless
whose personal definition do you mean, sir john hershel 's?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_photography
i think its just a technical thing needs light, and the negative,
whatever kind it might be, is a stencil. i'll even go so far to say that a shadow cast on a wall
is an impermanent photograph :smile: ink, pigment whatever they might be, if light wasn't involved
( from what i understand ) they are xyzzy prints .. i think they should call them
noteasy prints cause they aren't easy.

Well if we run the absurd argument of "Photography is made with the light!" to its ultimate absurd limit that some photographers use to claim their work is 'more special' than other photographer's work, then all darkroom prints fail that.

They're clearly Chemotography... The drawing was done with chemical processes between the light and the end result.

If you're not projecting the original light to be viewed, then you're obviously a dirty cheater and a fake, and everyone should buy my work instead of yours...
 

kfed1984

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Well if we run the absurd argument of "Photography is made with the light!" to its ultimate absurd limit that some photographers use to claim their work is 'more special' than other photographer's work, then all darkroom prints fail that.

They're clearly Chemotography... The drawing was done with chemical processes between the light and the end result.

If you're not projecting the original light to be viewed, then you're obviously a dirty cheater and a fake, and everyone should buy my work instead of yours...
I feel the need to release myself for a few minutes in this post:

I don't see why it has to be original light, and if we bring chemistry into the discussion then yes, we can call it Photochemography, as the light is first used to selectively activate the medium for the chemical processes afterwards. A digital image can also become a Photochemograph if it is exposed on Chromogenic or B&W Silver-Gelatin paper with a digital laser-exposure printer and developed with chemistry (C-type print). Then it becomes much closer to true photography. Also, these printers can produce very high-resolution photographs if the original digital image is high-resolution.

If you print with an inkjet ink on "photographic" inkjet paper, then what you obtain is an inkjetograph, of some sort. An inkjetograph from an original digital image, which was a phototelegram or photogram rather than photograph..

Gene Nocon puts it very nicely at the end of this interview, even though he praises digital for its technical possibilities:


If you're talking about using the original light in photography, there are direct positive methods for both color and B&W. Think of Polaroid for example, which produces positives instead of negatives using direct light. While these may not be technically the best, some of these B&W methods produce hauntingly interesting and detailed images on large format, indeed probably because they're produced by the original light. In these processes the medium was in fact touched by the subject being photographed, though indirectly. The photographed subjects are basically stamping/imprinting themselves on the medium. I like to think of analog photography as taking finger-prints of reality; you have more than information in this process, you've got a physical object/imprint. This object potentially carries a degree of quantum entanglement - more on this later, but that's only my speculation.

A digital image is like a scan of that fingerprint, you only have information, but no object. The original object in a digital camera is the sensor with electrical charges selectively distributed on it by the optical image, but then this object disappears when the charges are taken off the sensor during reading and sent to the SD card, then telegrammed to the computer, then the drive, then the short term memory of the printer, etc., etc.

When we talk about other analog printing processes like engravings, etchings, woodcuts, etc. we care about more than just information (x-y coordinates on paper and shade), we also care about the process used to make the final print and the final physical print. Albrecht Durer's paper engravings are worth tens of thousands, because the paper has been touched very intimately by his copper plate, which physically transferred the ink that his shop applied by hand to the plate, etc, etc. An ultra-high resolution scan of his engraving is not worth much, as its just information. We understand and appreciate these things for such processes but not for photography for some reason. Probably because photography has been hijacked by ink-jetters.

I remember when "photographic" inkjet paper was coming out in the 90s, and I could not understand how they could call it photographic, as its not light-sensitive, it was so obvious. It just felt like false advertisement at first, but over the years became forcefully instilled in our minds. I am saying this while not selling any images at all. I also find it kind of difficult to appreciate how one can sell an inkjet print while calling it a photograph. Kind of like selling sand at the beach, there's nothing special about it.

I can also get very deep into the potential quantum entanglement between the object + film and between the operator + film + the final print. Though this involves the concepts of quantum-based nature of human consciousness proposed by Sir Roger Penrose, and the possibility that we gain insight into the world around us via a non-information-based consciousness. Film-based photography can allow this, while digital is only information. But I personally don't need any of these explanations, because digital is just not interesting (because of the abovementioned I think). It may be a lot more superior in its efficiency but there's just something onanistic about it. The final apparent outcome is the same or even "better", but you're missing the point of it all and feel a bit deprived. I know what it is being in the digital world myself with digital SLRs.

Additionally, what is the best "look" obtained in digital imaging? Probably the "film look", with artificial grain and the film S-curve. I think Fuji makes a camera with these presets. There's something unauthentic about this. While the best digital look, just looks digital.... Along with the very digital looking ink droplets on "photographic" inkjet paper. When taking digital snapshots and printing on inkjet you are always aware that anybody can buy one of billions of high-res stock images online for under $1, give it the "film look" or some other look and send it out to Walmart print-center for ink-jetting, or one of thousands master ink-jetters in the city. Its like selling sand at the beach, very demoralizing for me. For others maybe not, as somebody was able to sell a very digital NFT for 60 million. But I would not count on this, as exception is not the rule.

In saying this I am not against digital as it is a different medium altogether, a digital media. I think digital can become very interesting if used in a hybrid process with C-type prints (chromogenic or silver-gelatin) where light-sensitive mediums are involved. Also digital technology can be used to make awesome color-carbon prints, which are true pigment prints, much more easily than with analog methods. These processes make extensive use of light to call them photographic, and enough labor to sufficiently entangle the artist/operator with their print.
 
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kfed1984

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Pollock's “No. 5, 1948,” originally sold for fifteen hundred bucks and most recently changed hands for $140 million. Everyone who has ever touched that painting has been the "fool" you describe, and later was hit with an avalanche of money when they passed it on to the next person.

The fools.

The mistake people make is thinking that copying a $140 million radical style will bring them closer to what people and the market wants. Its like playing the lottery, having heard that most jackpot winners have played the lottery all their life, and ignoring a much larger majority who lost all their money doing the same thing. The one and only Jackson Pollock became famous for doing his own thing. There were probably others like him who never made a cent. Actually majority of others became broke doing the same thing but you never hear about them.

Another artist could crumple up a piece of paper at a public event, with all eyes/media on him, and make a fortune for being the first to do so. That piece of paper can win fame for being that piece of paper during that public event. You will fail doing the same thing and will become very depressed about yourself for trying this.

So for all of us who aren't Jackson Pollocks, the medium and materials are important as nobody cares about your ideas and your useless style unless somebody sponsors and publicizes you. So it better be a C-print, Silver Gelatin, or color carbon print made with digital printers. If selling inkjet, one can always find a better stock image for under $1 and send it to Walmart print center to get it ink-jetted.
 
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OP
Pieter12

Pieter12

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The mistake people make is thinking that copying a $140 million radical style will bring them closer to what people and the market wants. Its like playing the lottery, having heard that most jackpot winners have played the lottery all their life, and ignoring a much larger majority who lost all their money doing the same thing. The one and only Jackson Pollock became famous for doing his own thing. There were probably others like him who never made a cent. Actually majority of others became broke doing the same thing but you never hear about them.

Another artist could crumple up a piece of paper at a public event, with all eyes/media on him, and make a fortune for being the first to do so. That piece of paper won fame for being that piece of paper during that public event. You will fail doing the same thing and will become very depressed about yourself for trying this.

So for all of us who aren't Jackson Pollocks, the medium and materials are important as nobody cares about your ideas and your useless style unless somebody sponsors and publicizes you. So it better be a C-print, Silver Gelatin, or color carbon print made with digital printers. If inkjet, I can find a much better stock image than yours for under $1 and send it to Walmart print center to get it ink-jetted.

A $1 for anyone who can translate that into intelligible English.
 

kfed1984

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A $1 for anyone who can translate that into intelligible English.

I asked Chat GPT-4 to interpret what this person said:
1694905455328.png

1694905477750.png



and it did so for free:

1694905309345.png

 

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kfed1984

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Chat GPT4 interpretation of my earlier post, if unintelligible:

The person is delving into a nuanced discussion about the differences between analog and digital photography, especially with respect to the underlying processes and the value attributed to the final product.
  1. Terminology & Processes: They introduce the term "Photochemography" to describe a process where light selectively activates a medium for subsequent chemical reactions, differentiating it from simple digital or inkjet printing. A C-type print, where a digital image is exposed on light-sensitive paper and developed chemically, is given as an example that comes closer to "true photography."
  2. Value of the Medium: The person argues that in analog photography, you have a physical object that is more than just information. They refer to it as a "fingerprint of reality," speculating about the potential of quantum entanglement between the photographed subject and the medium.
  3. Digital vs. Analog: Digital photography, by contrast, captures only information and lacks this physicality. Once the sensor's electrical charges are read and converted into a digital file, the original 'object' is lost, becoming just a series of data points.
  4. Artistic & Market Value: The person argues that the process matters in defining the value of art. For example, engravings by Albrecht Durer are valuable not just because of the image but because of the physical interaction between ink, plate, and paper. In contrast, inkjet prints are not valued as highly because they are easily replicable and don't involve a unique, tangible process.
  5. Authenticity: There's a criticism of how digital methods try to emulate the "film look," which the person finds unauthentic. Digital prints, especially those mass-produced by inkjet, are likened to "selling sand at the beach"—commonplace and unremarkable.
  6. Hybrid Approaches: The writer is not wholly against digital technology. They suggest that it could become interesting if used in hybrid methods with traditional photographic processes like C-type prints or color-carbon prints, where the final print still involves light-sensitive mediums and a labor-intensive process.
  7. Philosophical Notes: They touch upon theories involving the quantum-based nature of human consciousness proposed by Roger Penrose, suggesting that analog photography may allow a deeper, non-information-based connection to reality.
In summary, the person is advocating for a richer understanding of photography that extends beyond the immediate visual output to include the processes, materials, and even quantum interactions involved. They find more depth and value in analog methods compared to digital ones, though they acknowledge the potential for hybrid approaches.
 
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