C41 Tetenal kit - yellow streaks

FujiLove · Jul 7, 2014

Hi- I processed a roll of Portra 160 yesterday using a Tetenal C41 kit, a Jobo 4322 tank and a Jobo rotary processor (old manual water bath with magnetic attachment). I believe I got my times and temperatures spot on to the recommended 38C, and overall I'm happy with the results. However, I'm seeing a faint yellow streak running down the length of most of the shots (a quarter of the way from the left). The first attached image is the file straight out of the scanner and in the second one I've boosted the saturation so you can see the pattern better. At first I thought I had a light leak, but it looks more like a chemical issue to me. Reading around the posts on here, I'm wondering if the colour developer has run down the film in some way and over-developed a patch. Maybe I've poured it in too quickly and it's run down the film rather than coming up from the bottom? Also, some people are recommending a stop bath between developer and blix. Could that have some bearing? Thanks for any advice!

pbromaghin · Jul 7, 2014

The 4332 has to be loaded, attached to the Jobo and then detached to dump the chems at every step, correct? It looks to me like the container sat for a while with chemicals in it either before attaching it to the Jobo, or after detaching and pouring it out. The yellow band is where the chems splashed up onto the film. I don't know enough about C-41 to say in which step this happened.

FujiLove · Jul 7, 2014

Yes, it has to be filled, lid put on, attached to the processor and then the motor started. It's probably a 10 second process from starting the fill to the motor running.

pentaxuser · Jul 7, 2014

This might be a longshot and may not apply to film but is it possible that some remains of water was left in the tank and this has streaked the film before the developer got there. Not an issue I know if the film was totally pre-soaked not is it an issue if a print is totally pre-soaked but a rivulet of water on an otherwise dry RA4 paper before the developer will give a pronounced streak

Might be the same with film. I don't see any causes per se from your description of filling and starting rotation.

If it affects the print as little as the film based on your first scan then it isn't too bad.

pentaxuser

Rudeofus · Jul 7, 2014

I had exactly the same yellow streaks in blue sky, and the solution was to use a stop bath and a rinse after the color developer. AFAIK you can not repair negs that you already processed, but at least for future negs you will be good. You can use any B&W stop bath, or just dilute vinegar 1:2 and use that.

In case you want a technical explanation: Tetenal asks you in their instructions to BLIX right after CD without any wash step in between. The BLIX will oxidize your color developer, and the oxidized CD will happily react with the color couplers in your film. A stop bath will stop color development, and the wash cycle will get rid of all color developer left in the emulsion. Your BLIX can then do its job properly, since at that point there will be no color developer left to stain your images.

FujiLove · Jul 7, 2014

Thanks for your input - much appreciated. I'll definitely use the stop bath and wash next time, but I also think I've tracked down the problem: I dragged all my kit out again and gave the tank a good looking over. I think I used the wrong centre column in the tank. I have a new tank with a shorter column and it may have been mixed up with the older tank I use for the C41. There's not much difference (about 5 or 6 mm), but it would be enough to allow the developer to spill over the top of the centre column and run down the film rather than filling up from the bottom. Also the longer column has a different base, perhaps meaning the developer didn't flow out the bottom fast enough, again causing the liquid to spill out over the film. The splashed area of film would receive around 10 seconds more development time, possibly leading to the smear.

Even if that's not the full cause, I'm sure it can't have helped!

tnabbott · Jul 7, 2014

I would also vote for using a stop bath. In my limited experience the stop bath ensures consistency and good results.

Dr Croubie · Jul 7, 2014

Rudeofus said:
In case you want a technical explanation: Tetenal asks you in their instructions to BLIX right after CD without any wash step in between. The BLIX will oxidize your color developer, and the oxidized CD will happily react with the color couplers in your film. A stop bath will stop color development, and the wash cycle will get rid of all color developer left in the emulsion. Your BLIX can then do its job properly, since at that point there will be no color developer left to stain your images.

So if this is how it works, and it's a better way of doing things, then why do the instructions state explicitly to NOT use a stop bath in between, when everyone else on this thread seems to be advocating to use one?

Arctic amateur · Jul 8, 2014

They don't. Nowhere does it say "don't use a stop bath", but the instructions don't say "always use a stop bath between CD and blix", either.

Unless you read on one more page, to where they recommend the use of a stop bath if reusing the chemicals.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/pages/product_pdfs/tetenal/TetenalC41_Instructions.pdf

Dr Croubie · Jul 8, 2014

Arctic amateur said:
They don't. Nowhere does it say "don't use a stop bath", but the instructions don't say "always use a stop bath between CD and blix", either.

Well, Jobo certainly does say on page 11:

Caution: For most reliable results, do not add a stop-bath and/or rinse
between the developer and the bleach (or bleach-fix) steps. Doing so may
produce significant increases in contrast and density of the image. The
film may not print correctly.

So why would they say that if everyone else here is saying 'stop is better'?
I'm not saying either is right, I only did my first 3 rolls of C-41 last weekend with no stop and no problems, it's all just getting a little confusing with the conflicting information.

FujiLove · Jul 8, 2014

Thanks for the link to the JOBO document. That makes interesting reading. They do seem to contradict what the Tetenal instructions say about the stop bath. Reading through this doc, I can see I've made a load of mistakes with my processing:

1. I assumed the pre-warm meant with water, so I've been filling the tank with 38C water and running it on the processor at slow speed for 5 minutes. My poor film has been getting a long warm soak!

2. I didn't realise the Blix needs to be oxygenated, so I haven't been shaking the bottle before use. Also didn't realised that I could go over time with the Blix without harming the film. I've been whipping it off the processor like crazy when it's bang-on 4 minutes.

3. I thought the stabiliser had to be run on the processor. No wonder it's like a foaming bubble bath when I take the lid off!

Doh.

When I started this thread I was slightly disappointed with the yellow streak...now I'm utterly amazed I have any photos at all

Rudeofus · Jul 8, 2014

Dr Croubie said:
Well, Jobo certainly does say on page 11:

Caution: For most reliable results, do not add a stop-bath and/or rinse
between the developer and the bleach (or bleach-fix) steps. Doing so may
produce significant increases in contrast and density of the image. The
film may not print correctly.

All I can say is that I have used stop&rinse between CD and BLIX for years, the yellow streaks were gone, and none of this high contrast/density issue ever popped up. It also makes no sense from a processing standpoint, except you assume that BLIX must be "replenished" with alkaline carry over liquid instead of water.

Dr Croubie said:
So why would they say that if everyone else here is saying 'stop is better'?
I'm not saying either is right, I only did my first 3 rolls of C-41 last weekend with no stop and no problems, it's all just getting a little confusing with the conflicting information.

I never needed the stop bath with 35mm rolls and followed the Tetenal instructions to the letter with great results - until I did my first 120 roll.

FujiLove · Jul 8, 2014

Rudeofus said:
All I can say is that I have used stop&rinse between CD and BLIX for years

Do you use acetic acid stop? Basically diluted white vinegar?

Also interesting it's the 120 film causing the issues. This is only my second C41 run. The first was 35mm and came out perfect.

Rudeofus · Jul 8, 2014

FujiLove said:
Thanks for the link to the JOBO document. That makes interesting reading. They do seem to contradict what the Tetenal instructions say about the stop bath. Reading through this doc, I can see I've made a load of mistakes with my processing:

1. I assumed the pre-warm meant with water, so I've been filling the tank with 38C water and running it on the processor at slow speed for 5 minutes. My poor film has been getting a long warm soak!

This is not a problem and I always use 38°C water to presoak and prewarm my film. It is the easiest way to get you film tank up to temp.

FujiLove said:
2. I didn't realise the Blix needs to be oxygenated, so I haven't been shaking the bottle before use. Also didn't realised that I could go over time with the Blix without harming the film. I've been whipping it off the processor like crazy when it's bang-on 4 minutes.

Four minutes sounds a bit short, as far as I remember Tetenal's instructions correct BLIX time starts at 6 minutes and goes up as you process more rolls. Yes, BLIX runs to completion, you can under-BLIX (very bad! ) but you can't over-BLIX, and the experts here on APUG commonly recommend extending BLIX times by 50% for good results.

FujiLove said:
3. I thought the stabiliser had to be run on the processor. No wonder it's like a foaming bubble bath when I take the lid off!

Yes, you don't want to shake STAB too much. It contains some wetting agent that lets the water run off your film more easily, but that wetting agents foams like crazy. Before this comes up: STAB must be the last thing that touches your film, you must not water rinse or anything after STAB! And one more thing: mix STAB with deionized water, this will prevent water marks on your film after drying.

FujiLove said:
Doh.

When I started this thread I was slightly disappointed with the yellow streak...now I'm utterly amazed I have any photos at all

You did quite well, and with that extra stop bath you will get rid of these yellow streaks, too.

FujiLove · Jul 8, 2014

Rudeofus said:
This is not a problem and I always use 38°C water to presoak and prewarm my film. It is the easiest way to get you film tank up to temp.

Ah, good to know. Dry warming didn't sound convincing to me!

Rudeofus said:
Four minutes sounds a bit short, as far as I remember Tetenal's instructions correct BLIX time starts at 6 minutes and goes up as you process more rolls. Yes, BLIX runs to completion, you can under-BLIX (very bad! ) but you can't over-BLIX, and the experts here on APUG commonly recommend extending BLIX times by 50% for good results.

Sorry, I meant 6. Thanks for the 'extra 50%' tip. I'm certainly feeling better prepared for my next processing session.

FujiLove · Jul 15, 2014

I bought a bottle of 99% glacial acetic acid yesterday to use as my stop bath. Any advice on what dilution I should be using? I found a post elsewhere that referred to 3% acetic acid - so about 10ml in my single film tank. Does that sound right (before I go and burn the hell out of my film!)?

Thanks

Rudeofus · Jul 15, 2014

FujiLove said:
I bought a bottle of 99% glacial acetic acid yesterday to use as my stop bath. Any advice on what dilution I should be using? I found a post elsewhere that referred to 3% acetic acid - so about 10ml in my single film tank. Does that sound right (before I go and burn the hell out of my film!)?

Anything between 1 and 3 % sounds about right. Make sure you pour acid into water, not the other way round, when you mix your stop bath! And good luck with your next process run!

Sirius Glass · Jul 15, 2014

FujiLove said:
Thanks for the link to the JOBO document. That makes interesting reading. They do seem to contradict what the Tetenal instructions say about the stop bath. Reading through this doc, I can see I've made a load of mistakes with my processing:

1. I assumed the pre-warm meant with water, so I've been filling the tank with 38C water and running it on the processor at slow speed for 5 minutes. My poor film has been getting a long warm soak!

Yes, you want the pre-soak to be warm to warm the film and to prevent reticulation.

Rudeofus · Jul 16, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Yes, you want the pre-soak to be warm to warm the film and to prevent reticulation.

As we know, there is hardly any "cheap" C41/E6 film around anymore, and the companies still dominating that market (Kodak, Fuji, Ilford) preharden their films. I would therefore challenge everybody to bring up an example of reticulated color film (C41 or E6), where the effect was triggered by water and standard processing chemistry in the temperature range between 10°C and 50°C in arbitrary sequence.

@Fujilove: prewashing with 38°C water has the big advantage that your setup is at the correct temperature when the color developer is poured in. I would not worry about these reticulation or grain clumping issues, these are myths IMHO, at least with modern emulsions.

Sirius Glass · Jul 16, 2014

Rudeofus said:
As we know, there is hardly any "cheap" C41/E6 film around anymore, and the companies still dominating that market (Kodak, Fuji, Ilford) preharden their films. I would therefore challenge everybody to bring up an example of reticulated color film (C41 or E6), where the effect was triggered by water and standard processing chemistry in the temperature range between 10°C and 50°C in arbitrary sequence.

Given the pricy-ness of film, I will take the challenge if you will pay for the film and the chemicals.

FujiLove · Jul 16, 2014

Rudeofus said:
Anything between 1 and 3 % sounds about right. Make sure you pour acid into water, not the other way round, when you mix your stop bath! And good luck with your next process run!

Thanks for the info and the safety tip. I always struggle to remember which way around it's meant to go...lucky I have my lab coat, gloves and safety specs

Rudeofus · Jul 16, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Given the pricy-ness of film, I will take the challenge if you will pay for the film and the chemicals.

I will happily reimburse you for film&chems in case you can show proof of reticulation under the circumstances I described before, if you promise to pay me US$ 1 for each roll that will not suffer damage. Deal?

:munch:

Sirius Glass · Jul 16, 2014

Rudeofus said:
I will happily reimburse you for film&chems in case you can show proof of reticulation under the circumstances I described before, if you promise to pay me US$ 1 for each roll that will not suffer damage. Deal?

:munch:

Counter offer: You pay all costs incurred and I will supply the time and labor.

Rudeofus · Jul 16, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Counter offer: You pay all costs incurred and I will supply the time and labor.

I have already done this dozens of times over, and unless I did evil things with the process liquid composition (don't use H2O2 to boost your bleach ), I never had issues with the emulsion. My list of processing sins that did not cause any damage includes:

Rapid change from alkaline CD (38°C) to acidic stop bath (ambient temperature) back to wash water (40°C)
Use acidic fixer right after CD step.
Prewet or intermediate wash with water at 50°C.
Wash with cold water.
Bleach at temperature well above 40°C
Forget film in wash water for many hours

Before you waste your time, film and effort on proving me wrong, you better come up with something good

Sirius Glass · Jul 16, 2014

Picky, picky, picky ...

C41 Tetenal kit - yellow streaks

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