C41 failure! Cloudy negatives, but why?

[Charon]

I have a puzzle that I think is solvable, but I need some help from people who know more about the C41 process than I do!

I've just processed three films in a patterson 3 spool tank, using a Tetenal Colortec C41 1 litre kit. I'd used this batch of chemistry for the first time yesterday with three films, and they all looked great.

Today's films were, in order from the bottom of the tank up: some cheap re-branded 400 ASA colour film ("Jessops SHR 400") that's about 6 or 7 years out of date; a roll of Kodak Gold 200 that was also pretty old; and a roll of new Kodak CN-400 (the C41 process black-and-white film that Kodak make).

The CN-400 (from the top of the tank) looks great. The Gold 200 has identifiable negative images, but is a bit cloudy, and the Jessops 400 is very cloudy indeed, with barely visible images. The cloudiness extends all the way across the film substrate.

I'm guessing this could be caused by a number of factors: the tank takes 15 seconds to fill, so I could have over-processed the films towards the bottom of the tank. Then again, this could just be what happens with old film.

I'll scan the negatives when they are dry to try to get something from them. After that, I'm going to have a go at either re-bleachfixing them for a bit, and/or re-stabilising them for a bit.

Given that they look cloudy, I'm going to guess that they could use a re-bleaching (to remove the silver?). Or perhaps just a re-stabilise? Does anyone have any tips on what might have happened here?

 

[AgX]

You "just processed" them. Wait until they have dried down.

 

[hrst]

1) Wait until they are dry

2) If it does not help, determine if it is image (dye) fog or cloudiness; fog looks just like increased image density with no "cloudy" look. It can be there due to old age of the films. 7 years out of date, especially in room temperature, usually means increased fog level. When using such film, you have to overexpose to get the image appear through the fog. I would suggest 1 or 1,5 stops for film of this age.

3) If it really is cloudiness, kind a milky appearance, it may be underfixing. Repeat the whole tail end of the process: blix with increased time, final wash and stabilizer.

4) Retained silver doesn't look "cloudy" or "milky", but more like dark, and the final image will be more grainy with muted colors. In this case, repeat the tail end of the process as in 3).

If the reason is retained silver (underbleaching) or retained halides (underfixing, milky look), look at the recent discussion of possible problem with film blixes and solutions given at (there was a url link here which no longer exists) . Good thing in color processes is that you can always later correct bleaching and fixing problems by redoing them. If the developer step is good, then you haven't lost anything.

But, don't forget the stabilizer or final rinse, and don't wash with water after that step.

 

[Charon]

I've been moping about my spoiled films all evening, then I read both of your replies, went back to the lab / bathroom, and you were both spot on! Having dried out, the contrast is back on the mark!

I'll have a proper investigation in the morning, but for now, thanks for the heartening advice! You guys help make APUG forum is the internet at its best

 

[hrst]

That's the first color film processing experience probably everyone of us have had . I also was thinking "something went wrong" when my first E6 film was milky as it was drying...

I think it's something related to refractive indexes between dyes and water. As the film dries, all the milkiness goes away.

 

[AgX]

Wet gelatin has a different light refraction than those resin particles with the dyes.

 

[Athiril]

I'd like to add if you take a negative and wet it.. soak it... the apparent density increases while wet!

 

[canibanoglu]

14 years later, I just developed a roll with the same C41 kit as the OP, freaked out just the same when I saw the negative looked a big foggy/milky, then I found this thread and created an account just to tip my hat off to all of you.

 

[foc]

Welcome to Photrio and that you found a solution to your "problem".

 

[psfred]

Back when one had to fight off dinosaurs whem walking to school (up hill bothways) Agfa color films and papers used a different means of immobilizing the dyes in the gelatin and didn't change opacity or color when wet. That changed in the 70's I think, when Agfa also started using resin beads to hold the dye couplers.

TCN and XP-2 ( or XP-1 if you have 30 year old flim hanging around like I do) show the same effect, but much less than other color films.