C41 control strip fluctuations due to unknown factors (Noritsu V30)

[MingMingPhoto]

hey guys I'm having trouble running c41 control strips. I used to use the kodak ones and they were good. switched to the fuji and the results NEVER line up. to the point where I have constantly dump chemicals and start over.

when I add the correction factors or even without the correction factors nothing ever lines up. the results when scanning are good despite what the strips say. Is anyone willing to go on a call and help me with this? particualrly are there any chemists who really know what's going on?

 

[Steven Lee]

I use the Fuji strips. The readings are spot-on (unless I mess up temperature). Feels like your chemicals may be an issue here... Are you using blix-based kits? Or "old" Flexicolor? I am using Bellini C-41 or Fuji C-41 5L from Freestyle.

the results when scanning are good despite what the strips say.

Scanning is noticeably easier when readings are on target. Specifically, inverting colors is easier.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I use the Fuji strips. The readings are spot-on (unless I mess up temperature). Feels like your chemicals may be an issue here... Are you using blix-based kits? Or "old" Flexicolor? I am using Bellini C-41 or Fuji C-41 5L from Freestyle.



Scanning is noticeably easier when readings are on target. Specifically, inverting colors is easier.

I'm using RA fuji Chemicals. they have never been spot on for me (control stripps). would yo ube willing to show me you do your control strips from stracth and also I show yo u how i do mine and we go throuhg it together? I can pay if need be

 

[koraks]

Is it correct you're running a relatively low-volume setup, doing C41 in batches of a few films at a time, in tanks (rotation or manual inversion)?
What is the volume of the working stock of your developer, how are you replenishing it, and how do you store the working stock?
What are the deviations you generally see on your control strips?

 

[foc]

Can you post an image of your control strip reading chart, please?
Something like this:



Here are a few C41 manuals that might help.

Kodal Z-99M manual

Kodak monitoring and troubleshooting manual

Fujifilm C41 manual 2020 edition

Kodak C41 manual Z131

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Is it correct you're running a relatively low-volume setup, doing C41 in batches of a few films at a time, in tanks (rotation or manual inversion)?
What is the volume of the working stock of your developer, how are you replenishing it, and how do you store the working stock?
What are the deviations you generally see on your control strips?

I'm using a v30 - minimum 200 rolls a week but I dump chemcials every two days since I can't trust my readings. here's a photo of my most recent set of chemicals:
on the cottom you can see where I added 50ml of starter or partc jsut as tests

 

[koraks]

I see you're adding components of the developer instead of replenishing it with the regular replenisher. Is this based on some technical publication of Fuji?

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I see you're adding components of the developer instead of replenishing it with the regular replenisher. Is this based on some technical publication of Fuji?

so what you're seeing is me testing differnt things to try to get things in control - noramlly the machine replishes for me. the issue is my first result - out thegate is not in control. I really want that to be the first step, then from there I can figure out the proper replenishment rates

 

[koraks]

Alright, I see.

I suspect that it'll be hard to get things stable in (1) a relatively small volume, (2) if you dump everything after a few days and start over and (3) if you throw things off-balance with haphazard interventions. I'd be inclined to give it some time to settle, and only replenish using the actual replenisher. If you see high densities increase over the target value, cut back on replenishment. If they drop, replenish a little more. Then hope that things will even out.

I'd also suggest getting in touch with FUJIFILM and discussing your problem with them. If your chemistry is FUJIFILM Hunt, contact the people in Sint Niklaas, Belgium. If it's manufactured somewhere else, try through the US FUJIFILM offices and see if they can get you in touch with someone who can advise you in this.

PS: I assume replenishment on your machine is set in accordance with the spec sheet of the chemistry you're using.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Alright, I see.

I suspect that it'll be hard to get things stable in (1) a relatively small volume, (2) if you dump everything after a few days and start over and (3) if you throw things off-balance with haphazard interventions. I'd be inclined to give it some time to settle, and only replenish using the actual replenisher. If you see high densities increase over the target value, cut back on replenishment. If they drop, replenish a little more. Then hope that things will even out.

I'd also suggest getting in touch with FUJIFILM and discussing your problem with them. If your chemistry is FUJIFILM Hunt, contact the people in Sint Niklaas, Belgium. If it's manufactured somewhere else, try through the US FUJIFILM offices and see if they can get you in touch with someone who can advise you in this.

PS: I assume replenishment on your machine is set in accordance with the spec sheet of the chemistry you're using.

I'm doing 7.5 liter volumes. I think you're misunderstanding - I did a fresh batch 7.5 liter and that was not in control. it supposed to be in control. I then did some tests to try t o see how different things. but overall I'll try to contact fuji like yo usaid. do oyu have any contacts on your side. I am talkign t osomeone who used to work for fuji (we're gonna have another call this week coming up his mname is mike) but fif you know other people it would be amazing to know

 

[John Salim]

Are you sure all of your circulation pumps are working properly ? ... with good clean filters ?
If you're processing 200+ rolls ( with relatively small tanks ), then there's something seriously wrong going on here.

John S

 

[foc]

Please stop dumping your working tank solutions, this is causing more problems than it is solving.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind, about your workflow.

• What densitometer are you using?
• Do you keep the control strips in a fridge (chilled)?
• When you take them out do you let them come to room temperature?
• Do you use an instant read thermometer to check the developer temperature daily and before control strip processing and do you log these temperature readings?
• Do you measure the reference strip and apply the correction factors supplied with the control strips?
• On the Noritsu V30, do you check your replenisher pump out, and circulation filters on a weekly basis?
• Has the Noritsu V30 been serviced and calibrated recently?

As @koraks has mentioned above, there are too many variables happening to be able to pin this down, when it should be a fairly simple job.

You need to let a freshly mixed developer tank working solution "settle in". I would suggest that with any freshly mixed tank, make your first control strip reading and then it should be let run for at least a week before another control strip readings is made. With 7.5 liter tank of fresh developer, there is plenty of active developer and replenisher and a tank that size shouldn't go bad that quickly.

The secret to maintaining good quality control is to make any small adjustments one at a time. And if you go slightly outside the control limits, it's not the end of the world, it can be brought back in. If it keeps going outside the limits then there is a problem.

If you are processing low volume of films, then I suggest you read this.

Fuji C41 low volume

In the Fuji document, see this chart to help select the best low volume option for you. The V30 has 7.6 Liter developer tank so look at the 10 liters in the chart.

 

[koraks]

if you know other people it would be amazing to know

I do, but I doubt they have the time to respond to this, and their first suggestion would most likely be what I already told you. I don't think they're very likely to respond to a problem that boils down to the combination of "a multitude of factors and interventions" resulting in "erratic density shifts in all directions and at all levels" - or, in a single word: "chaos". This is not to discourage you, but to emphasize what @foc says above as well: isolate factors, allow for settling time, small incremental changes. Then, once you get a clear pattern to the drifts you're seeing, feed that to Fuji and see what they say. But in all likelihood, the problem will have resolved itself by then...

Are you sure all of your circulation pumps are working properly ? ... with good clean filters ?

Valid points.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Are you sure all of your circulation pumps are working properly ? ... with good clean filters ?
If you're processing 200+ rolls ( with relatively small tanks ), then there's something seriously wrong going on here.

John S

yes the pumps seem to be good - https://www.dropbox.com/s/jntlwbnnd0z4dva/IMG_1264.MOV?dl=0
the CD filters are brand new but I'll change all the others as well to drop a variable

one thing I'm noticing from both you and Koraks is you guys are stuck on my replenishment etc. I'm going to capitalize this not to be rude, but to bring attention to it:

MY TEST STRIPS HAVE NEVER BEEN IN ORDER SINCE I SWITCHED TO FUJI. EVEN WHEN MIXING NEW CHEMICALS, MY PLOTTINGS ARE OFF THE CHARTS. INFACT THE CORRECTION FACTORS MAKE EVERYTHING WORSE - DESPITE THIS THE FILM COMES OUT VERY NICELY. GREAT CONTRAST, VIBRANCE, AND COLORS.

so while there is possibility to be an UNRELATED issue with the replenishment, it is actually irrelevant till we can solve why my control strips are not coming out right. perhaps I'm plotting them incorrectly? or following some other procedure incorrectly because it's not a mix error, and I'be been doing this for months now. Just processing with musclee memory from when I was using the kodak control strips then dumping the moment things feel off and starting over.

I'm following kodaks test strip information in document z131, but I'm using fuji control strips. is it possible that's where I'm messing up?

Please stop dumping your working tank solutions, this is causing more problems than it is solving.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind, about your workflow.

• What densitometer are you using?
• Do you keep the control strips in a fridge (chilled)?
• When you take them out do you let them come to room temperature?
• Do you use an instant read thermometer to check the developer temperature daily and before control strip processing and do you log these temperature readings?
• Do you measure the reference strip and apply the correction factors supplied with the control strips?
• On the Noritsu V30, do you check your replenisher pump out, and circulation filters on a weekly basis?
• Has the Noritsu V30 been serviced and calibrated recently?

As @koraks has mentioned above, there are too many variables happening to be able to pin this down, when it should be a fairly simple job.

You need to let a freshly mixed developer tank working solution "settle in". I would suggest that with any freshly mixed tank, make your first control strip reading and then it should be let run for at least a week before another control strip readings is made. With 7.5 liter tank of fresh developer, there is plenty of active developer and replenisher and a tank that size shouldn't go bad that quickly.

The secret to maintaining good quality control is to make any small adjustments one at a time. And if you go slightly outside the control limits, it's not the end of the world, it can be brought back in. If it keeps going outside the limits then there is a problem.

If you are processing low volume of films, then I suggest you read this.

Fuji C41 low volume

In the Fuji document, see this chart to help select the best low volume option for you. The V30 has 7.6 Liter developer tank so look at the 10 liters in the chart.

View attachment 368690

1) would you mind elaborating on what problems dumping my working tank can be introducing?
2) Xright 810 - calibrated
3) yes they are stored cold
4) sometimes I don't wait as long as I could. I'll run a new set of test strips with all fresh chemicals and see what I get nd report back here
5) I do not record my CD temperature and log it. What benefits will I gain from doing so?
6) I do. I follow kodaks procedure on z131 with fuji's control strips and graph everything on a kodak graph.
7) I keep awareness of the replenisher pumps, and I've uploaded a video of the CD circulation pump (all the others are fine, but please let me know if you think the CD is fine in the video. (read reply above for link to video)
8) it has not been serviced or calibrated since I purchased it a year ago in very good condition

also mentioned in above comment, my INITIAL readings are FAR OFF from "good" so I have no chaoice but to not trust my plotting and therefore have to dump my tanks when I've gotten through a number of rolls.
until I can solve the issue with plotting everything else is actually pointless.

I'm having trouble reading the chart. which document can that be found on? Fuji has an assortment of c41 chemicals so I need to check this is for the ones that I use.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I do, but I doubt they have the time to respond to this, and their first suggestion would most likely be what I already told you. I don't think they're very likely to respond to a problem that boils down to the combination of "a multitude of factors and interventions" resulting in "erratic density shifts in all directions and at all levels" - or, in a single word: "chaos". This is not to discourage you, but to emphasize what @foc says above as well: isolate factors, allow for settling time, small incremental changes. Then, once you get a clear pattern to the drifts you're seeing, feed that to Fuji and see what they say. But in all likelihood, the problem will have resolved itself by then...


Valid points.

I see, I'll try to figure something out

 

[koraks]

one thing I'm noticing from both you and Koraks is you guys are stuck on my replenishment etc.

I hear what you say about your consistent problems, but doing odd stuff with replenishment isn't going to make it better. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Besides, the information you're feeding us is (1) you have trouble with strip consistency and (2) you're doing odd things with your chemistry. It's only fair we point this out. I do accept that given what you state, there is probably more going on. It's always possible you somehow made a mixing error with the chemistry or you're working with an expired batch (although the factory packaging has reasonably good shelf life in my experience). Or there's some misc issue with contamination, temp variations in your machine etc. etc. It's a bit of a crap shoot at the moment and most of that is not your fault; it's just challenging to get a grip on what's going wrong with someone's setup a couple of thousand miles away. Heck, it's challenging enough standing next to the machine, as you've noticed.

 

[foc]

1) would you mind elaborating on what problems dumping my working tank can be introducing?

If you mixed the developer tank solution correctly (replenisher, starter & water) then there should be no need to dump. Remember what I said about letting the tank solution "settle". Am I correct in that the negatives look and scan OK but the densitometer reading is off and that's why you dump the chemicals?

2) Xright 810 - calibrated

Great.

3) yes they are stored cold

Great.

4) sometimes I don't wait as long as I could. I'll run a new set of test strips with all fresh chemicals and see what I get nd report back here

Good.

5) I do not record my CD temperature and log it. What benefits will I gain from doing so?

The benefit is that you have a record of the temperature of the developer over time. Information is always helpful and if consistent (when viewed on a chart or log) can eliminate temperature as a cause of a problem.
I would recommend a weekly log of control strips, developer temperature readings, all tanks replenishment rates and pump output.

6) I do. I follow kodaks procedure on z131 with fuji's control strips and graph everything on a kodak graph

Good.

7) I keep awareness of the replenisher pumps, and I've uploaded a video of the CD circulation pump (all the others are fine, but please let me know if you think the CD is fine in the video. (read reply above for link to video)

Circulation looks good. The tank looks full even with the rack taken out. Normally it should look just over half full with the rack out. Also the machine should alarm when the rack is out and the levels drop. The circulation should then stop and heater cut out. Did it do this?
Am I viewing that correctly and why is it looking full?

8) it has not been serviced or calibrated since I purchased it a year ago in very good condition

I would recommend that the machine should be serviced at least once a year by a Noritsu engineer (if possible).

MY TEST STRIPS HAVE NEVER BEEN IN ORDER SINCE I SWITCHED TO FUJI. EVEN WHEN MIXING NEW CHEMICALS, MY PLOTTINGS ARE OFF THE CHARTS. INFACT THE CORRECTION FACTORS MAKE EVERYTHING WORSE - DESPITE THIS THE FILM COMES OUT VERY NICELY. GREAT CONTRAST, VIBRANCE, AND COLORS

I think your problem may be here. I think something is causing incorrect readings.
Can you get another densitometer, borrow from someone, and compare readings? Or could you send your control strips to someone that can make reliable readings for you. (Fuji in Ireland offered this service years ago)

The X-Rite 810 recommends you do the transmission calibration weekly. Do you do this?
Is the opal glass cleaned regularly and the optic blown with compressed air to free any dust?

Incase you haven't the X-Rite manual, here it is.

X-Rite 810 manual

Reading the chart: First how many films (on average) do you process?

Your Noritsu V30 has a 7.6 Liter tank so look at the row 10L. At the bottom is the number of films processed per day. I have high lighted in blue in the chart.
If you process 10 films a day (on average) then you should be using (yellow 1) EnviroNeg Developer Replenisher 60AC @ 60ml per 35mm 24 exp film.
If you process 15 films a day (on average) then you should be using (green 2) EnviroNeg Developer Replenisher AC.

One last note. Do you remove the cross over racks, in sequence, every night and put them in a water bath (a 10x8 print tray filled with water or something similar)?
Do you leave the top cover/lid of the machine slightly open/vented to stop condensation from forming on the inside of the lid?

I hope this helps. It would be great if you could get someone local to you, with the relevant knowledge, to help.

Be prepared to pay for this knowledge. Ideally a Noritsu C41 service engineer, they would be worth their weight in gold and probably as rare as hen's teeth.

 

[John Salim]

I'm thinking the control strips have been compromised.
Do you have a friendly 'local competitor' ( or somebody on here reading this ) who could run a strip in their processor ?
Did you buy the strips from overseas ..... with possible x-ray damage ????

How does your processed strips look visually next to the reference strip ?

John S

 

[Ericc]

I use these test strips and I had to tweak my development times and temps to get the strips in spec. I realize my usage is single role single use which is very different use case then you have. But I thought I'd post my results that might help others.

I'm using a paterson tank developing 120 film.. I had to deviate from the published temps/times but I'm now able to get the test strips into spec.

I had to increase the temperature to 102F (verified with a calibrated temperature sensor). Agitation was one inversion of the tank per second for the entire time minus that last 10 second. I preheat the paterson tank for about 20 minutes with film loaded using a 12V heat tape wrapped around the tank. (Dry tank) this gets the plastic/film/reel up to temperature before chemistry is added.

Chemistry was newly mixed Fuji Developer, Kodak bleach, and Kodak fixer, stabilizer. All chemicals where used one shot.

Times used where:

Develop (102F) 3:45
Bleach (102F) 6:30
Wash (75F) 3:15
Fixer (102F) 6:30
Wash in sink with running water 3:15
Stabilizer 1:30

-Eric

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I hear what you say about your consistent problems, but doing odd stuff with replenishment isn't going to make it better. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Besides, the information you're feeding us is (1) you have trouble with strip consistency and (2) you're doing odd things with your chemistry. It's only fair we point this out. I do accept that given what you state, there is probably more going on. It's always possible you somehow made a mixing error with the chemistry or you're working with an expired batch (although the factory packaging has reasonably good shelf life in my experience). Or there's some misc issue with contamination, temp variations in your machine etc. etc. It's a bit of a crap shoot at the moment and most of that is not your fault; it's just challenging to get a grip on what's going wrong with someone's setup a couple of thousand miles away. Heck, it's challenging enough standing next to the machine, as you've noticed.

I got you

If you mixed the developer tank solution correctly (replenisher, starter & water) then there should be no need to dump. Remember what I said about letting the tank solution "settle". Am I correct in that the negatives look and scan OK but the densitometer reading is off and that's why you dump the chemicals?

I notice having to reduce yellow more and more the more I process film, so I'm not confident that my replenishment is right for whatever reason. since I can't trust the plots I make, I have no way to check if the process is moving more or less in control. I could theoretically just keep processing and see if it actually gets worse but that would mean sacrificing people's film. I really enjoy giving people the best quality developing though so I wouldn't do this unless it was the last choice. this is why I constantly dump

I'll bring my control strips to another lab and see if they get the same results

The benefit is that you have a record of the temperature of the developer over time. Information is always helpful and if consistent (when viewed on a chart or log) can eliminate temperature as a cause of a problem.
I would recommend a weekly log of control strips, developer temperature readings, all tanks replenishment rates and pump output.

since the machine has temp control I'll run off the assumption that the temperature is always in control until I see a drastic enough change in control strips. I don't see why I should constantly assume the temp of the machine is off

Circulation looks good. The tank looks full even with the rack taken out. Normally it should look just over half full with the rack out. Also the machine should alarm when the rack is out and the levels drop. The circulation should then stop and heater cut out. Did it do this?
Am I viewing that correctly and why is it looking full?

I think I filled it with water so that the machine wouldn't say "low tank"

I would recommend that the machine should be serviced at least once a year by a Noritsu engineer (if possible).

meaning I should contact noritsu directly? on on the east coast of the USA, perhaps you know some good people I can go to?

I think your problem may be here. I think something is causing incorrect readings.
Can you get another densitometer, borrow from someone, and compare readings? Or could you send your control strips to someone that can make reliable readings for you. (Fuji in Ireland offered this service years ago)

The X-Rite 810 recommends you do the transmission calibration weekly. Do you do this?
Is the opal glass cleaned regularly and the optic blown with compressed air to free any dust?

not weekly no, but I've done it many times

Incase you haven't the X-Rite manual, here it is.

X-Rite 810 manual

thank you

Reading the chart: First how many films (on average) do you process?

View attachment 368745
Your Noritsu V30 has a 7.6 Liter tank so look at the row 10L. At the bottom is the number of films processed per day. I have high lighted in blue in the chart.
If you process 10 films a day (on average) then you should be using (yellow 1) EnviroNeg Developer Replenisher 60AC @ 60ml per 35mm 24 exp film.
If you process 15 films a day (on average) then you should be using (green 2) EnviroNeg Developer Replenisher AC.

I've never heard of these chemicals before. These are the chemicals I know of (attached some screenshots) - and when I google these they do come up, but I'm a little hesitant. do you happen to know about the difference between these two lines of chemicals?

One last note. Do you remove the cross over racks, in sequence, every night and put them in a water bath (a 10x8 print tray filled with water or something similar)?
Do you leave the top cover/lid of the machine slightly open/vented to stop condensation from forming on the inside of the lid?

I hope this helps. It would be great if you could get someone local to you, with the relevant knowledge, to help.

Be prepared to pay for this knowledge. Ideally a Noritsu C41 service engineer, they would be worth their weight in gold and probably as rare as hen's teeth.

I do, and yes I'll look for an engineer. thank you so much for being so thorough, I really need communication like this

I'm thinking the control strips have been compromised.
Do you have a friendly 'local competitor' ( or somebody on here reading this ) who could run a strip in their processor ?
Did you buy the strips from overseas ..... with possible x-ray damage ????

How does your processed strips look visually next to the reference strip ?

John S

I thought so too, but others I know say they plot well and they get them from the same source. I've also tried various boxes from diff shipements so I think the issue is on my side.
I will DEFF do this, thank you for the advice. and no they are not from overseas jsut a couple miles away.
they look close but they are always a tad bit more fogged

 

[foc]

since the machine has temp control I'll run off the assumption that the temperature is always in control until I see a drastic enough change in control strips. I don't see why I should constantly assume the temp of the machine is off

It is a safety check. You don't assume the machine temperature is off but you use the log to check that everything is correct and if anything should happen you can spot it in time.

It's up to you if you want to keep records or not, but best practice/good house keeping would suggest it is worth the effort.

I'll bring my control strips to another lab and see if they get the same results

• I would suggest you bring: your reference control strip,
• your latest control strip processed by you.
• An unprocessed control strip for them to process and compare.
• Let them plot for the reference and their processed strip and then plot for the reference and your strip.

Let us know how it turns out, please.

meaning I should contact noritsu directly? on on the east coast of the USA, perhaps you know some good people I can go to?

I'm in Ireland so I don't know of any Noritsu engineers on US east coast but there is a company in Miami, Florida that might have some advice for you.

https://www.serranorey.com/

 

[MingMingPhoto]

update my processor broke so I have to wait till it's all fixed up before I can do anything further

 

[koraks]

Ouch, sorry to hear that.
Is it a defect that may be related to the variable results?

 

[foc]

update my processor broke so I have to wait till it's all fixed up before I can do anything further

Sorry for your troubles. What broke?
Are you repairing yourself or an engineer?
If an engineer, ask them about your process control problems and see what they say.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Ouch, sorry to hear that.
Is it a defect that may be related to the variable results?

I don't think so, I actually think my chemicals might be messed up? reason below:

Sorry for your troubles. What broke?
Are you repairing yourself or an engineer?
If an engineer, ask them about your process control problems and see what they say.

So I brought my reference strip to another lab and we got about the same numbers as my densitometer
I brought some strips from my box as well and when they processed it it came out a lot closer to control than mine did (signifcant difference I'll share results on my next reply)
I processed control strips from that same box in my filmomat and got the same ridiculous results I got before. I don't THINK I'm mixing incorrectly but is it possible?? the results when scanning need limited to no adjsutments so I'm actually very confused.