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C-41 Replenishment and Jobo

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L Gebhardt

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I've been using Kodak C-41 developer (both LORR and regular depending on availability), cpac and kodak bleach III, and kodak C-41 fixer in my Jobo ATL and following Kodak's advice for capacity and single use for developer and fixer, with reusing the bleach one time. Results have been good, but I feel like I'm wasting too much bleach and developer. Part of my concern is cost, but mostly it's chemical disposal hassles. The Kodak instructions for rotary results in using a full liter of developer and fixer for 3 rolls of film and half that for bleach. If I were able to replenish I could get those volumes down significantly with the exception of the fixer.

I also don't shoot a lot of film most weeks so replenishment could make developing more frequently easier since there would be less mixing of working solutions. I haven't looked at how much turnover the LORR developer needs to stay fresh, so maybe my film usage rate isn't high enough to make this even feasible.

Does anyone use a Jobo with replenishment and good long term success replenishing? If so what is your process like?
 

Ericc

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I'm using Kodak Flexicolor RA bleach replenisher NR CAT # 6600274 . It comes in a 5L bottle and I'm still using the original 600ml I put in a glass bottle. I think I'm maybe 10+ rolls of film reusing that first 600ml and I don't see any signs yet that the bleach is getting tired.. I just make sure it's well aeriated by shaking the bottle before and after putting the bleach back in.

From Kodak:

Bleach Areation—In Process C-41, you must aerate the
bleach to convert the less active iron II into more active
iron III. If aeration is inadequate, it can contribute to
retained silver and leuco-cyan dye problems, as well as
causing staining by-products that will increase the D-min
density of processed films.
 
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L Gebhardt

L Gebhardt

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I'm using Kodak Flexicolor RA bleach replenisher NR CAT # 6600274 . It comes in a 5L bottle and I'm still using the original 600ml I put in a glass bottle. I think I'm maybe 10+ rolls of film reusing that first 600ml and I don't see any signs yet that the bleach is getting tired.. I just make sure it's well aeriated by shaking the bottle before and after putting the bleach back in.

From Kodak:

Bleach Areation—In Process C-41, you must aerate the
bleach to convert the less active iron II into more active
iron III. If aeration is inadequate, it can contribute to
retained silver and leuco-cyan dye problems, as well as
causing staining by-products that will increase the D-min
density of processed films.

Isn't Kodak Flexicolor RA bleach replenisher for paper? Do you mean Flexicolor Bleach III Replenisher #6600258?
 

Scott J.

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Isn't Kodak Flexicolor RA bleach replenisher for paper? Do you mean Flexicolor Bleach III Replenisher #6600258?

No, Eric is referring to #66000274, which is the "Rapid Access" version of the C-41 bleach, which requires just 1:00 for bleaching color negative film (versus 6:30 when using the conventional Bleach III).

The practical wisdom on C-41 bleach is that it can be used many, many times over, contrary to what the manufacturer recommendations are (e.g., where Kodak says the Flexicolor Bleach III has twice the capacity of the developer). People report using it almost indefinitely, but I can't attest to that, as I do what you do -- use it twice and dispose. That's probably wasteful on my part but I just don't process enough C-41 film to worry about bleach economy (I usually end up being more worried about shelf life of unused concentrates).

One thing worth investigating is if you're using more chemistry than is really necessary per roll. You report following the Flexicolor instructions regarding chemical capacity -- e.g., three rolls (80 in2 each) per liter of solution, or ~330 mL of chemistry per roll of 135-36 or 120. If you look through these forums, you'll find that the question of minimum Flexicolor chemistry required to achieve correct development has been discussed many times over, though with resolution coming mostly in the form of anecdotal reports only. The general-ish consensus seems to be that the Jobo minimum requirement of 170 mL for a 120 roll in a 2500-series tank (which is based solely on the threshold to achieve submersion) appears to also be adequate in terms of developmental capacity (assuming an "average" roll made up of Zone V exposures). The only way to quantifiably test if 170 mL is truly adequate for each 80 in2 of film is to put a 120 film into the tank along with a control strip, but that would require mixing 120 film with 135 (the control strips are short lengths of 135 film), which there's no easy way of doing with a Jobo reel. I tried testing a more extreme version of this about a month ago by developing two rolls of 120 in 270 mL of chemistry in a Jobo 2500 tank (so, 135 mL per roll) with a control strip taped emulsion side up to the inside wall of the tank. In that test, I got less-than-satisfactory results in the control strip. For me, that suggested that 135 mL per 80 in2 of film probably isn't adequate. (To be fair, the negatives seemed to scan fine; only the control strip indicated a problem.) I'd like to pursue further tests to find the minimum volume required, but for now, my gut instinct is that 200 mL per 80 in2 is a safe bet.

Regarding developer replenishment, my understanding is that, although not impossible in rotary systems, the frequent agitation and high rate of oxidation in something like a Jobo means that the published replenishment rates (which are typically calculated for dip-and-dunk and roller transport machines) don't apply. I personally use the developer and fixer one-shot, but one could presumably test various replenishment rates with control strips. I'm guessing the replenishment rate would need to be quite high to overcome the oxidation of the developer (assuming, of course, your objective was to stick with the standard 3:15 development time).
 
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L Gebhardt

L Gebhardt

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I'm using Kodak Flexicolor RA bleach replenisher NR CAT # 6600274 . It comes in a 5L bottle and I'm still using the original 600ml I put in a glass bottle. I think I'm maybe 10+ rolls of film reusing that first 600ml and I don't see any signs yet that the bleach is getting tired.. I just make sure it's well aeriated by shaking the bottle before and after putting the bleach back in.

From Kodak:

Bleach Areation—In Process C-41, you must aerate the
bleach to convert the less active iron II into more active
iron III. If aeration is inadequate, it can contribute to
retained silver and leuco-cyan dye problems, as well as
causing staining by-products that will increase the D-min
density of processed films.

Thanks, now that Scott explained Kodak's odd reuse of RA in a film product it makes sense. Are you using a Jobo? Do you do anything to keep the developer carryover from building up in the bleach?


No, Eric is referring to #66000274, which is the "Rapid Access" version of the C-41 bleach, which requires just 1:00 for bleaching color negative film (versus 6:30 when using the conventional Bleach III).

The practical wisdom on C-41 bleach is that it can be used many, many times over, contrary to what the manufacturer recommendations are (e.g., where Kodak says the Flexicolor Bleach III has twice the capacity of the developer). People report using it almost indefinitely, but I can't attest to that, as I do what you do -- use it twice and dispose. That's probably wasteful on my part but I just don't process enough C-41 film to worry about bleach economy (I usually end up being more worried about shelf life of unused concentrates).

One thing worth investigating is if you're using more chemistry than is really necessary per roll. You report following the Flexicolor instructions regarding chemical capacity -- e.g., three rolls (80 in2 each) per liter of solution, or ~330 mL of chemistry per roll of 135-36 or 120. If you look through these forums, you'll find that the question of minimum Flexicolor chemistry required to achieve correct development has been discussed many times over, though with resolution coming mostly in the form of anecdotal reports only. The general-ish consensus seems to be that the Jobo minimum requirement of 170 mL for a 120 roll in a 2500-series tank (which is based solely on the threshold to achieve submersion) appears to also be adequate in terms of developmental capacity (assuming an "average" roll made up of Zone V exposures). The only way to quantifiably test if 170 mL is truly adequate for each 80 in2 of film is to put a 120 film into the tank along with a control strip, but that would require mixing 120 film with 135 (the control strips are short lengths of 135 film), which there's no easy way of doing with a Jobo reel. I tried testing a more extreme version of this about a month ago by developing two rolls of 120 in 270 mL of chemistry in a Jobo 2500 tank (so, 135 mL per roll) with a control strip taped emulsion side up to the inside wall of the tank. In that test, I got less-than-satisfactory results in the control strip. For me, that suggested that 135 mL per 80 in2 of film probably isn't adequate. (To be fair, the negatives seemed to scan fine; only the control strip indicated a problem.) I'd like to pursue further tests to find the minimum volume required, but for now, my gut instinct is that 200 mL per 80 in2 is a safe bet.

Regarding developer replenishment, my understanding is that, although not impossible in rotary systems, the frequent agitation and high rate of oxidation in something like a Jobo means that the published replenishment rates (which are typically calculated for dip-and-dunk and roller transport machines) don't apply. I personally use the developer and fixer one-shot, but one could presumably test various replenishment rates with control strips. I'm guessing the replenishment rate would need to be quite high to overcome the oxidation of the developer (assuming, of course, your objective was to stick with the standard 3:15 development time).
Thanks for the clarification. You learn something new everyday.

I think I may have tried increasing the film area per liter a while ago, but I don't remember the results. It's been a while since I was last processing C41 in any quantity, and when I recently restarted I reset to the Kodak recommendations. Maybe I'll do some tests with 4x5 sheets and compare 3,4, and 5 roll equivalents per liter. Done in a print drum I should be able to avoid wasting too much film. Even finding 4 rolls per liter works well would be a large reduction of waste.
 

mshchem

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I make up 5 L of Developer Replenisher, store in smaller full bottles, make up the Tank Solution Developer as needed use one shot.

I use Flexicolor Bleach RA and replenish, this stuff lasts forever.

Fixer is dirt cheap, use a couple times and toss

Final rinse I make up fresh each session with pure water, use and toss.
 
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L Gebhardt

L Gebhardt

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I make up 5 L of Developer Replenisher, store in smaller full bottles, make up the Tank Solution Developer as needed use one shot.

I use Flexicolor Bleach RA and replenish, this stuff lasts forever.

Fixer is dirt cheap, use a couple times and toss

Final rinse I make up fresh each session with pure water, use and toss.

Do you use a Jobo? One of my concerns with replenishing is carryover from the developer diluting the bleach. But I guess I could always re-bleach and re-fix if I see an issue, and then increasing the replenishment rate.
 

mshchem

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Do you use a Jobo? One of my concerns with replenishing is carryover from the developer diluting the bleach. But I guess I could always re-bleach and re-fix if I see an issue, and then increasing the replenishment rate.

Yes, I use a Jobo. There is some carryover. I simply replenish as usual. If you are using a 1 liter tank I with hold some of the bleach, add the required amount of bleach (ready to use Flexicolor Bleach RA) to your 1 liter bottle, then top up with the used solution and toss any extra.

I wouldn't worry about replenishing the bleach every time, maybe every 8-10 rolls. If I remember the replenishment rate is about 9mL per roll.
 

koraks

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One of my concerns with replenishing is carryover from the developer diluting the bleach

Use an acetic acid stop bath and if you're especially paranoid, follow it with a water rinse, and then bleach. This will leave your bleach in pristine condition, especially if replenished appropriately. Manufacturer's specifications for bleach replenishment are on the conservative side, I think. Replenish a little more if you want to follow their example :smile:

One of the benefits of Jobo rotary processing IMO is that you can get away with a small volume of developer, making one shot use quite economical. I haven't tried a replenished developer and I have some doubts if it'll be very stable under intermittent and low usage patterns. How problematic such instability is in the light of other process variations and flexibility in printing and/or scanning, I couldn't say - but I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Frankly, very tightly controlled c41 processing in a low volume intermittent home setting is rather elusive, and I have severe doubts it's as wise to strive for as many assume. It's easy to drive yourself crazy. It's also surprisingly easy to get very decent results without too much fuss. Take your pick :smile:
 

foc

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Frankly, very tightly controlled c41 processing in a low volume intermittent home setting is rather elusive, and I have severe doubts it's as wise to strive for as many assume. It's easy to drive yourself crazy. It's also surprisingly easy to get very decent results without too much fuss. Take your pick :smile:

+1 👍
 

Tom Kershaw

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One of the benefits of Jobo rotary processing IMO is that you can get away with a small volume of developer, making one shot use quite economical. I haven't tried a replenished developer and I have some doubts if it'll be very stable under intermittent and low usage patterns.
In Jobo land I have replenished the bleach with no issues. My experiments with replenishing the developer were not successful, the colour quality or integrity falls apart rather rapidly, although density looks acceptable which I suspect may mislead people into thinking replenishing is a safe option until they come to print or scan the negative.
 

koraks

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Thank you for adding your experience, @Tom Kershaw . Your findings seem to confirm my suspicions about developer replenishment. IME it works OK for RA4 prints, but C41 film is more critical.
 
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L Gebhardt

L Gebhardt

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Thanks all. I’ll try replenishment for the bleach only and add a stop bath and rinse step. That seems like It’s safe. I’ll also test if I can increase the amount of film in a liter of developer and by extension the fixer since my Jobo only holds a single liter. Worst case I can refix once the cycle is done.
 

sillo

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I've started replenishing my bleach too since the price went up and the future of Sino Promise is up in the air. Right now I'm doing 85/ml per roll, but will probably reduce that at some point.
 

mtjade2007

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There is a problem processing C-41 films (E-6 too) with Jobo rotary processors. When the developer is pumped into the rotating drum the developer temperature can be significantly lowered instantly by the drum and the film inside, which will pretty much ruin the process resulting in color crossover faults. The solution is to preheat the drum (and the film inside) by letting the drum rotating for a long time before the processing starts. Even so I still suspect it will be sufficient in bringing the temperature of the drum and the film to 38 degree C before the developer is pumped in. This is particularly a problem when developing longer rolls or multiple rolls of film at a time. It will take a long time to preheat especially in winter time if the rotatory processor is not in an airconditioned room (mine is in my garage).

I used to process two 220 C-41 rolls at a time with my Jobo ATL-2300 using 560 ml of developer, bleach and fix. I ruined a lot of films and wasted a lot of time to troubleshoot the problem before I finally nailed it. I switched to presoaking with heated water twice each for 20 seconds. Basically this is adding two presoak steps to my C-41 process using my ATL-2300. This has a benefit of washing out the orange dye coating of the C-41 film before the development step. So my developer remained clear after processing the film. But this created another problem. The presoak step will leave some water in the drum which could dilute the subsequent developer and ruin the process as well. The solution to this is to use more developer for each run always. I now process only one 220 roll at a time and I programed my ATL-2300 to use 470ml of developer.
 
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L Gebhardt

L Gebhardt

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That makes sense. 4 rolls in 560ml seems like quite a lot. It would make sense to give the 2500 series drums more warm up time than the expert drums which let the water bath into the drum to warm the tubes.
 

Steven Lee

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I used to process two 220 C-41 rolls at a time with my Jobo ATL-2300 using 560 ml of developer, bleach and fix. I ruined a lot of films and wasted a lot of time to troubleshoot the problem before I finally nailed it. I switched to presoaking with heated water twice each for 20 seconds.
+1

Adopting control strips and a densitometer was eye opening for me. JOBO instructions are misleading. They say you should preheat the tank by running it dry for 10 mintues which does absolutely nothing to internal temperature. I measured it. I am now convinced that most JOBO users are ruining film by being a solid 2-3F off. They don't even know what they're missing. Arguably, with scanning being the predominant target, most (all?) ill effects of temperature errors are corrected, but even then, scanning and color balancing is much easier if the film is developed at precisely 100F.

Speaking of replenishing a developer, I am with @koraks here: it's just not practical for most people with limited volumes. That isn't just about film volume, replenishing also requires large(r) volume of working solution to be smooth. Using the half-gallon jug of replenished Xtol I am seeing noticeable density variability between runs, and I can only imagine how much worse it can get with C-41.
 
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brbo

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I am now convinced that most JOBO users are ruining film by being a solid 2-3F off. They don't even know what they're missing.

I don't think "ruining" film is necessarily the correct world. I'd really be interested in results from @mtjade2007 and @Steven Lee showing the ruined film when Jobo tank wasn't preheated properly. It's true that I never measured temperature inside Jobo tank with dry preheating, but I can definitely feel that air pressure inside the tank is higher after dry preheating which means that temperature inside the tank must be higher than ambient temperature.

I've done tests developing at temperatures that significantly deviate from 38ºC. Even with development at 30ºC and analogue RA-4 printing I wouldn't exactly write off such a print.



In the following test the goal was to get the feel of the maximum difference one would get if one failed to preheat the tank to 38ºC (which would mean that film would be slightly underdeveloped) and failed to stop the development immediately after pouring out the developer (which one would otherwise do with an acidic stop or bleach).

Row #2: no preheat, 3:15s@ 38ºC
Row #3: 5min preheat with 38ºC water, 3:15s@38ºC, 1min water stop



Sure, there is a difference (and that's as large as you are gonna get), but film being ruined?!
 

Steven Lee

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@brbo My post you're replying to is self-contradicting :smile: On one hand I said "ruining film", on the other hand I said that the color deviations can probably be corrected during scanning. The deviations are definitely there: ±0.25F moves density by ±0.01.

Your RA4 printing test is phenomenal. In fact, I am liking the skincolor on the "ruined" shot more. The 2nd test is less telling, since all rows require color balancing.

I agree with your conclusion: minor temperature deviations can be corrected for during printing or scanning, and "ruining film" is not the right choice of words. Let's stick to "out of process limits" :smile:
 
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