C-41 processing times????

2F/2F · Nov 14, 2009

2F/2F said:
...adding a wash between developer and stabilizer can affect your negatives.

This was an absent-minded typo. I mean to say " between developer and bleach", not "between developer and stabilizer."

Given the Kodak instructions, it would follow that your fixer time should be the same as your bleach time. Two minutes fixer time seems very odd with a bleach time of 5:30, and all the other times being fairly close to the Kodak times. Is that time in the instructions for the kit you have? I wonder if the fixer in this kit is super concentrated.

Also, do the instructions call for a water rinse after the developer? As I mentioned, this is a bad idea IME.

One more thing: Do the instructions call for 102 F?

stradibarrius · Nov 14, 2009

Mark I know you have told me this before but in my tank it takes 500ml to cove the reel. You have said that you use 250ml. I would much rathe ruse 250ml if that is all I need. I have always thought the reel needed to be completely cover???
Also can the bleach be reused? As I have said before I am using the developer as one shot but the bleach seems to be the part I will run out of quickly.

I am about to try another roll and use the time and method as outlined above.

stradibarrius · Nov 14, 2009

Also Mark what are your mixtures again for the bleach? The box says 700ml bleach + 300ml of water = 1000ml of working soulution. At a different place on the box it say 5ml of bleach per roll. If I am only processing one roll I want to get the chemistry down so I can get the greatest yield but still do it correctly.

markbarendt · Nov 14, 2009

Barry,

The volume you need to cover the film is based on your tank and how you use it.

It sounds like you have a 1-reel tank.

If your tank is water tight you may be able use 250 or 300 ml of solution by laying it on it's side in the water bath, this will cover about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way up. Roll the tank/film constantly 1st one way then the other as your agitation. The tank has to be in constant motion for this to work, it's not hard and provides very even development.

To make up the working bleach solution for the first roll use 700 ml of the stock that came in the kit and 300 ml water to make 1l.

While using say 250ml of working bleach solution to do one roll (35mm or 120) just add 5ml of the stock that came with the kit, to the working bleach solution bottle you mixed up (this replaces/replenishes the active chemicals that get used up), then put the 250 ml you used back into that working solution tank too and save it for the next session.

For one 220 roll you'll need to use 500 ml of solution and 10 ml to replenish.

When I use full tanks, I aerate the bleach before use.

stradibarrius · Nov 14, 2009

Thanks Mark.
Further update...I processed another rol of C-41 film and had the same results!
I also had a new Arista C-41 kit that has a 3 part liquid developer, a 3 part liquid BLIX and a stabilizer. I processed the third roll withe the Aista kit and the nagative look great! They are still drying.
So this means that some of the chemicals in the Trebla kit are bad or something????
I tried to scan some of the negatives from the first roll. They were so dense the scanner could not scan them. The second roll was marginally better. I will try to scan some of those and then I will scan the negatives from the Arista kit.

Photo Engineer · Nov 14, 2009

I think that all of us question your 2' fix time. That is simply not enough.

Try rebleaching, washing, fixing, washing and stabilzing in the Trebla chemistry and then try in the Arista if the Trebla does not work. That will answer your question.

PE

stradibarrius · Nov 14, 2009

On the second I bleched and fixed for 6:30 but I will try again as you suggest.

Photo Engineer · Nov 14, 2009

Use the Arista kit for the tail end in another try. If it works in cleaning out the stain then it was the Trebla chemistry which I find unusual but possible.

PE

stradibarrius · Nov 14, 2009

PE
I did as you suggested and took a few frames from roll #1. It was so dense it was basically opaque but you could see an image. I re- bleached or "Blixed" it with the Arista chemistry and it cleared the negatives right up!!!
I guess that tells me something in either the bleach or fix is bad????

Photo Engineer · Nov 14, 2009

Well, then your problem is solved. Talk to Trebla.

PE

naugastyle · Nov 16, 2009

Don't know if this will help as I'm not using either Trebla or Arista, but last night I did my first C-41 rolls in Tetenal, splitting up the bleach and fix. Tetenal bleach is dark wine colored. Normal blix time in the instructions is 4 minutes, but at 4 minutes for the split steps I got brown negatives. I redid it (8 minutes total for each) and the images are much clearer, density looks pretty normal, but base is still not as bright orange as lab-processed negs (I'm going to change the dilution tonight).

Anyway, that Kodak PDF gives essentially the same times for bleach and fix steps which is what I was doing as well, and after adding time the negs are definitely not opaque. It's possible that there's nothing wrong with your Trebla chems...you re-did bleach/fix in Arista, but maybe if you re-did it in Trebla you'd still have cleared negs, and thus you simply needed more time.

Photo Engineer · Nov 16, 2009

If the pH and balance of excess EDTA in bleach and fix are not correct, then some darkening of the dmin can be observed. If the sulfite level is off, the same can happen. All of these are from different causes.

1. Bad bleach = Retained silver and retained yellow filter layer.
2. Bad fix = Retained silver halide and gradual darkening of the film.
3. High pH = Dark film due to developer stain from continued development - this cannot be fixed!
4. Low excess EDTA = Dark film due to retained Iron salts - this cannot be fixed!
5. Low excess Sulfite = Dark film due to developer stain - this cannot be fixed!

PE

naugastyle · Nov 16, 2009

"Gradual" darkening? Is this over a long enough period of time that most people might not notice for a while, like after scans/prints have already been made and the negs put away? But re-fixing takes the film back to normal?

Once strips are cut, can re-bleaching or re-fixing be done by simply submerging a bunch of strips in a tank? Is it best to try to wind the strips onto a reel to avoid touching other strips, or is that not critical for these steps?

Photo Engineer · Nov 16, 2009

Gradual darkening is the same as what you observe with poorly fixed B&W films. That is the only way to describe it.

Yes, for 1 and 2 above, you can always re-run the tail end of the process from bleach onward and fix the problem.

As for methodology, you have to decide what works for you. IDK your lab experience nor your equipment.

PE

Mlatterich · Jan 10, 2011

Photo Engineer said:
If the pH and balance of excess EDTA in bleach and fix are not correct, then some darkening of the dmin can be observed. If the sulfite level is off, the same can happen. All of these are from different causes.

1. Bad bleach = Retained silver and retained yellow filter layer.
2. Bad fix = Retained silver halide and gradual darkening of the film.
3. High pH = Dark film due to developer stain from continued development - this cannot be fixed!
4. Low excess EDTA = Dark film due to retained Iron salts - this cannot be fixed!
5. Low excess Sulfite = Dark film due to developer stain - this cannot be fixed!

PE

Thanks for this very useful info. This gives me a few pointers to troubleshoot my process.

I am using a JOBO processor and fresh C-41 flexicolor from Kodak, different kinds of film (Kodak and Fuji). Use pre-soak, dev, bleach, rinse, fix, rinse, stabilize. Dev three films at once in 600 mls.

All films, not just exposed areas, appear opaque (no gradual darkening), Kodak branded film dark brown, Fuji branded film dark purple; makes it impossible to scan. Same batch film at local photo lab give nice and clear negs .

I re-bleached the negatives, but no luck after 4 h. Made up new chemicals from scratch in supposedly DI water, performed bleach steps and fix steps for 30 mins each instead of the recommended 6.5 - same thing - opaqueness, always worse with Fuji than Kodak film. pH seems fine. According to municipal water source iron is low. I don't have access to an AAS, so hard to evaluate actual trace iron.

Should I try adding additional EDTA and/or sulfite to the bleach? What concentrations would you recommend? Should I try making everything with DI water next?

Thanks for your help.

Photo Engineer · Jan 10, 2011

This is a new problem to me.

What color is your bleach? Green or red? Do you use it from the bottle or do you dilute it?

PE

C-41 processing times????

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