C-41 Negative Uneven Development?

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Hello All,

Has anyone had this problem with their C-41 negatives? Any help would be much appreciated. The background has uneven areas or runs through the frames.

I have developed about 20-30 rolls of C-41 over the years but have never had this problem. This was my 3rd attempt with Kodak Flexicolor LORR chemicals. I double checked that I loaded the reel correctly and there was no film to film contact. This roll was mixed from new Kodak developers, fix, bleach, and Cinestill final wash/stabilizer. I use a sous vide to maintain temp. I did not do a prewet but did have the metal tank in the water bath and up to temp. I follow Kodak CIS-211 for procedure. I haven't tried washing them again to see if it changes anything. I also have not tried to make any c-prints from these yet. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank-you.

2021-08-21-0001.jpg IMG_E4614.jpg
 

mshchem

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Hello All,

Has anyone had this problem with their C-41 negatives? Any help would be much appreciated. The background has uneven areas or runs through the frames.

I have developed about 20-30 rolls of C-41 over the years but have never had this problem. This was my 3rd attempt with Kodak Flexicolor LORR chemicals. I double checked that I loaded the reel correctly and there was no film to film contact. This roll was mixed from new Kodak developers, fix, bleach, and Cinestill final wash/stabilizer. I use a sous vide to maintain temp. I did not do a prewet but did have the metal tank in the water bath and up to temp. I follow Kodak CIS-211 for procedure. I haven't tried washing them again to see if it changes anything. I also have not tried to make any c-prints from these yet. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank-you.

View attachment 283383 View attachment 283384
Really looks like the film was touching or close. When I've had film to film it's usually worse than what you are seeing. Doubt it's chemistry. Don't know???
 

foc

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Thank you for posting the image of the negatives and the contact images.
I noticed on the negative image that there are, what appears to, be two kink marks on the top of the negative. You can see a half moon at frame numbers 51 and 54. (I don't see them on any other frames)
This could have caused the negative to "almost" touch on the spool, and restrict the flow/agitation of the chemical.
 
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Thank you for posting the image of the negatives and the contact images.
I noticed on the negative image that there are, what appears to, be two kink marks on the top of the negative. You can see a half moon at frame numbers 51 and 54. (I don't see them on any other frames)
This could have caused the negative to "almost" touch on the spool, and restrict the flow/agitation of the chemical.
Thank you foc. I haven’t loaded a medium format reel in awhile. It was a Hewes but I had a little trouble getting it under the clip to start the loading of the film. I think you and mshchem are right with the film being close or barely touching.
 
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Really looks like the film was touching or close. When I've had film to film it's usually worse than what you are seeing. Doubt it's chemistry. Don't know???
Thank you mshchem. I agree in the past when I’ve had film touch it’s really noticeable. I need to practice loading the metal reels and shoot another roll.
 

koraks

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Looks like a flow mark problem to me, which could be caused by too much delay between pouring the chemistry into the tank and getting it in the horizontal position for rotation, possibly combined with too slow pour-in rate. This kind of issue tends to become more likely as film format (and tank volume) increases.
 

mshchem

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Any reel with a clip can be challenging. 120 film in plastic reels can be challenging. Practice helps but every time can be a challenge. Old Kindermann reels didn't involve a clip and helped center the film, this may be an option.
 

brbo

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Looks like a flow mark problem to me, which could be caused by too much delay between pouring the chemistry into the tank and getting it in the horizontal position for rotation, possibly combined with too slow pour-in rate. This kind of issue tends to become more likely as film format (and tank volume) increases.

^ This.

Also, freshly mixed developer certainly didn't help here, especially if the starter was omitted. When I need to develop 4x5" Ektar (by far the worst of the current emulsions as far the streaking is concerned) I use all the "tricks" (prewash, well "seasoned" developer, lightning fast pour-ins and pout-outs, only loading a couple of sheets (in the middle position of the 2509 Jobo reels) instead of 6) and I still get faint streaking on some sheets. I've now changed to 2509N reels with end flaps to see if it will help even out the flow in the tank, but I'm yet to test them with Ektar.
 

mohmad khatab

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Thanks Mohmad. No stirring rod for the metal tank just 1 gentle inversion every 15 seconds.
That is the tragedy caused by the stainless steel tank.
Developing using this tank is considered a great adventure in which you will lose luck.
I like this tank as it doesn't consume a huge amount of chemistry. And it saves a lot of money because it can develop two rolls in less than half a liter of chemistry.
But on the other hand, using this tank to develop the negatives of color is an adventure and involves some risks, you need to be a lucky man so that the matter passes peacefully.
Here, there are two problems.
- The first problem, is that this tank does not have a stick to incite. The agitation is heterogeneous and inconsistent.

The second problem is the fluctuation of temperature.
You will have to take the tank out of the water tank in order to turn the tank over to agitate
- Meanwhile, the tank body loses a small amount of its temperature, and therefore the chemistry inside the tank also loses some of its temperature.

Conclusion :
1 - Heterogeneous and uneven agitation
2 - Fluctuation in tank temperature and chemistry during stirring.
From my personal point of view.
This tank is very suitable for working with black and white films only.
 

koraks

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I've now changed to 2509N reels with end flaps to see if it will help even out the flow in the tank, but I'm yet to test them with Ektar.
In my experience, the flaps help a bit, but they're not a 100% guarantee that this sort of problem won't crop up once in a while.
 
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Looks like a flow mark problem to me, which could be caused by too much delay between pouring the chemistry into the tank and getting it in the horizontal position for rotation, possibly combined with too slow pour-in rate. This kind of issue tends to become more likely as film format (and tank volume) increases.
I usually use Arista Premium plastic tanks and reels but I thought for better temperature regulation I should go with the metal tank. When I poured the developer in I didn’t tip the tank at 45° which I just learned today helps? Thanks Koraks
 
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Thank you for all your thoughts and insights into possible causes to this issue. I have some things to watch out for. I did use starter with the new developer mixed according to Kodak CIS-49. I can say printing RA-4 (twice) and developing C-41 makes my quality control over my black and white lab process better!
 

MattKing

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When using a steel tank, I just use the small cap under one edge to cause the tank to tip enough to allow easy pouring.
I basically search for wayys to do things close to one handed.
 

brbo

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In my experience, the flaps help a bit, but they're not a 100% guarantee that this sort of problem won't crop up once in a while.

Great to hear. I'll take every little bit that could help.

Developing at lower temperature and longer time is a sure way to prevent streaking for me (but there is a little bit of colour balance shift form that). Probably a Jobo where you can pour in the developer with the tank already rotating would help (CPA, CPP)... I only have a basic CPE-2.
 

Scott J.

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I think FOC (Post #4) is onto something, in that there are certain diagnostic features in your negatives (besides the obvious problem areas) that suggest the film may be touching in places. I've had this same problem on a couple occasions using the 120 Hewes stainless steel reels made for the Jobo 1500 series tanks. I didn't much care for the Jobo plastic reels, so I bought a couple Hewes reels (in 135 and 120) to see how they performed by comparison. I've since gone back to the Jobo plastic reels because, although annoying to load, they seem to produce more consistent results. The problem I found with the Hewes reels (especially the 120 version) is that the radial arms that extend from the central core across the spiral rails tend to kink the film whenever the film crosses those arms. The kinks, if bad enough, can cause the film to get dislodged and touch the film in the next outer track. Getting the leading edge of the film correctly positioned in the clip is also crucially important, because if the alignment is off by only a couple degrees, the film has to eventually kink (usually multiple times) in order for the film to be able to spiral onto the reel.

In the case of your negatives, the most important diagnostic features are the fact that the anomalies are vertical (parallel to the core of the reel), which is consistent with the idea that film from an inner track is making contact with film on the next outer track. There are also the half-moon spots on the the film that FOC pointed out, which I know from experience are what happen when the film gets kinked where it runs across one of the aforementioned radial arms. The other thing is that the anomaly is strongest nearer the inside of the reel (i.e., nearer the end of the film strip, which gets loaded first) and gradually fades/attenuates as you move toward the outside of the reel (i.e., toward the beginning of the roll, which gets loaded last). That said, I think it's also possible, as others have suggested above, that this problem is being exacerbated by a second problem: slow filling and dumping of chemicals (which is common to stainless steel tanks).

As suggestions, the first thing I'd try doing is the easiest thing: Add a five-minute water pre-soak (at developing temperature) to your C-41 routine. If the problem you saw above was due to film contact, a pre-soak may help the developer penetrate between the two pieces of film just enough to provide adequate development in the troublesome areas. If the problem is, instead, inadequate chemical flow (which in C-41 primarily boils down to a surface tension problem combined with the short, 3:15 development time), the pre-soak will help the developer penetrate the emulsion of the entire film strip more quickly and evenly. (The "average" consensus on pre-soaking color film is that it has mostly negligible effects, and that other variations -- temperature, agitation, etc. -- probably have as much, if not more, impact on the quality of the final product.) This is a sensible thing to try first because it allows you to continue using your existing equipment.

If that doesn't work, my second suggestion would be to use a plastic reel and plastic tank if you have access to them. This should help you avoid both problems all together. The only problem with a plastic tank in this specific application is that they're usually less dense than the stainless steel tanks, so it may be more difficult for you to keep the tank immersed in your water bath. Placing something heavy on top of the tank while it's in the water bath will help keep it from floating or rolling over.

Please share your results if/when you get them. Good luck.
 
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