C-22 Found film

fletch2 · Feb 17, 2014

Over the years I've been collecting old cameras and where they still contain film I've tried to develop it. I've had reasonable success using the cold HC110 process developed by members of the Found Film group.

http://foundfilm.livejournal.com/3045.html

Until now I have been storing any C-22 materials I've found against the day when I could develop them in color. I think I'm close to being able to do that.

Late last year I bought an old Kodak 1 Gallon 2 part C-22 developer kit from Ebay. It consists of two liquid chemicals, Part A and Part B that are both still liquid and of the right approximate volume.

First question: How likely is it that this developer will still work? I'm assuming that my biggest problem with be with the CD-3 in the small amber bottle, but the liquid inside looks ok (I haven't broken the seal to examine it further.)

John Shriver tried a similar kit back in 2011 but in his case most of the components were dry powder. Does liquid developer make it more or less likely to to still be good?

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

My plan is to develop the film in low temperature HC110, scan the silver image, then use a Rehal Ferricyanide bleach to "turn" the film back into a form I can develop as C-22. This is the technique used in Kodak's AE-31 technical document.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/pdf/ae31.pdf

Question 2: I need to re-expose the film after bleaching but before developing as color. Is it possible to overexpose the film at this point or is the only concern that the film be evenly exposed?

Question 3: Would developing in Hc110 or at lower temperature compromise the chances of subsequently getting a color image. Final C-22 processing would be at the correct temperature.

I realize that the technique given in AE31 is intended as an "emergency rescue" for people that have accidentally developed color film as B&W and as such they are probably happy with any color image but I was wondering if anyone who has tried it can tell me how badly the technique degrades things vs going straight to color chemistry?

RattyMouse · Feb 17, 2014

This is definitely a job for PE!!!!

StoneNYC · Feb 17, 2014

I wouldn't know for sure but I can't imagine in any way that the chemistry is any good...

Just FYI I've read other posts (a few years ago but can't find them now) where someone developed C-22 in C-41 at 68 degrees for 20 minutes for the first developer (and as normal for the rest) with reasonably good results, the lower temp has to do with how the emulsion for C-22 can't handle heat at the same temperature.

I plan to try this soon but haven't yet....

fletch2 · Feb 17, 2014

I think opinion on that is divided. Reading around the net there seems to be a lot of people with "friends" that have made C-41 chemicals work, then there are people that look at the chemistry and point out that C-41 has the wrong developer (CD-4 vs CD-3) and lacks the Benzyl alcohol needed to make the dyes work, and uses the wrong type of bleach

I'm going to try the C-22 chemistry and see what happens.

StoneNYC · Feb 17, 2014

fletch2 said:
I think opinion on that is divided. Reading around the net there seems to be a lot of people with "friends" that have made C-41 chemicals work, then there are people that look at the chemistry and point out that C-41 has the wrong developer (CD-4 vs CD-3) and lacks the Benzyl alcohol needed to make the dyes work, and uses the wrong type of bleach

I'm going to try the C-22 chemistry and see what happens.

*shrug* fair enough.

You should re-bottle it in 250ml bottles and sell it on eBay for an exorbitant price if it works

VPooler · Feb 18, 2014

You could source the exact recipe and mix the chemicals from powder. I did the same for ECN2 and it was not very hard. CD3 is cheap and plentyful in the 'states too, unlike in Europe.

Photo Engineer · Feb 18, 2014

Here are the answers in order:

1. Kodak never made an all liquid kit for C-22. Therefore it should be powder AFAIK. In any case, the developer part would only keep for about 5 years max as a liquid anyhow and as a solid for about 8 - 10 years.

2. There is no bleaching before color development in C-22. It is Develop, stop, harden, bleach, fix, stabilize with washes between each step. This is not a reversal film.

3. The C-22 process ran at 75 F. Running lower risks compromising the color quality altogether, and using HC110 as a developer in a color process is pointless.

Now, these answers are based on your premise that you want color images. If not, then by all means use the Kodak instructions or others that have given good results.

PE

fletch2 · Feb 19, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Here are the answers in order:

1. Kodak never made an all liquid kit for C-22. Therefore it should be powder AFAIK. In any case, the developer part would only keep for about 5 years max as a liquid anyhow and as a solid for about 8 - 10 years.

I have it in front of me. I can't find any Kodak documentation on it except for their hazardous chemicals listings

http://msdssearchengine.com/local_msds.php?id=186133
http://msdssearchengine.com/local_msds.php?id=72491

What's interesting is the date the registration was made

Product ID:187 9824 LIQUID DEVELOPER, PROCESS C-22, PART A
MSDS Date:01/07/1999

1999 is a LONG time after C-22 went away.

2. There is no bleaching before color development in C-22. It is Develop, stop, harden, bleach, fix, stabilize with washes between each step. This is not a reversal film.

I may not have been clear. My intent is to develop as B&W first using HC110, scan the result. Then use a rehab bleach/re-expose as per AE-31 and process again as color. This is found film if possible I want to make sure there is something on it before worrying about color chemistry.

Roger Cole · Feb 19, 2014

StoneNYC said:
*shrug* fair enough.

You should re-bottle it in 250ml bottles and sell it on eBay for an exorbitant price if it works

Only if he can put in glass bottles with old fashion looking labels.

septim · Feb 19, 2014

fletch2 said:
I have it in front of me. I can't find any Kodak documentation on it except for their hazardous chemicals listings

http://msdssearchengine.com/local_msds.php?id=186133
http://msdssearchengine.com/local_msds.php?id=72491

What's interesting is the date the registration was made

Product ID:187 9824 LIQUID DEVELOPER, PROCESS C-22, PART A
MSDS Date:01/07/1999

1999 is a LONG time after C-22 went away.

I may not have been clear. My intent is to develop as B&W first using HC110, scan the result. Then use a rehab bleach/re-expose as per AE-31 and process again as color. This is found film if possible I want to make sure there is something on it before worrying about color chemistry.

Unless I'm missing something here the date on the MSDS you linked is 01/04/1984?

Product ID:187 9824,LIQUID DEVELOPER,PROC C-22,PART A
MSDS Date:01/04/1984

Or were you meaning to link to this MSDS: http://msdssearchengine.com/local_msds.php?id=104419 ?

Product ID:187 9824 LIQUID DEVELOPER, PROCESS C-22, PART A
MSDS Date:01/07/1999

StoneNYC · Feb 19, 2014

Roger Cole said:
Only if he can put in glass bottles with old fashion looking labels.

Now you're getting it!

fletch2 · Feb 19, 2014

septim said:
Unless I'm missing something here the date on the MSDS you linked is 01/04/1984?

Or were you meaning to link to this MSDS: http://msdssearchengine.com/local_msds.php?id=104419 ?

I think you are right. I had a copy saved as an "ingredients list" but obviously I couldn't link that so I searched again for it and it seems the ones I found this time had an earlier registration date.

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2014

Well, C-22 went away in the 70s and was just about the time Kodak "learned" how to package an all liquid kit with developer that did not go away quickly!

It is quite a surprise to me, as I never saw that kit. I have E3 and E4 kits from that time that are not liquid, but my E6 is as is the Ektaprint 3. So, I was wrong. In any event, that color developer is shot.

To fix things up you will need some CD-3 (5 g/l) and the Sulfite level will be off by quite a bit, but after that HC110, who cares!

Sorry for my goof. Old age is creeping in!

PE

fletch2 · Feb 19, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Well, C-22 went away in the 70s and was just about the time Kodak "learned" how to package an all liquid kit with developer that did not go away quickly!

It is quite a surprise to me, as I never saw that kit. I have E3 and E4 kits from that time that are not liquid, but my E6 is as is the Ektaprint 3. So, I was wrong. In any event, that color developer is shot.

No problem. Looking for information on that kit I see them coming up in commercial lab auctions and as government surplus. I suspect this may be some kind of special order item.

To fix things up you will need some CD-3 (5 g/l) and the Sulfite level will be off by quite a bit, but after that HC110, who cares!

Do I just mix A and B and add new CD-3 or are you suggesting that I remake Part A? How badly does the HC110/rehal step effect the chances of getting color images? I can skip it if it greatly impacts the result. It's really only there to ensure I retrieve something from the film.

StoneNYC · Feb 19, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Well, C-22 went away in the 70s and was just about the time Kodak "learned" how to package an all liquid kit with developer that did not go away quickly!

It is quite a surprise to me, as I never saw that kit. I have E3 and E4 kits from that time that are not liquid, but my E6 is as is the Ektaprint 3. So, I was wrong. In any event, that color developer is shot.

To fix things up you will need some CD-3 (5 g/l) and the Sulfite level will be off by quite a bit, but after that HC110, who cares!

Sorry for my goof. Old age is creeping in!

PE

Are you saying he can still use the bottle of developer by just adding CD-3 to it?

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2014

Do NOT use the CD3 bottle that came with the kit. It is probably tar by now. At best it will be a dark thick liquid that stinks like bad fixer. Use powder CD3 (5 g/l) and then use the other parts except for the CD3. This should work well enough after the HC110 treatment.

Expect degraded color and crossover.

PE

fletch2 · Feb 19, 2014

I will see about remaking a version of part A, this is more than just the CD-3 it also contains the Benzyl alcohol.

I will snip test a film and try one part via Hc110 and one direct in C-22 and get some idea as to the impact of the Ae-31 procedure. The chemicals for hardener/fixer/bleach are in transit. I just ordered CD-3. Is the Benzyl alcohol likely to be available locally (is it something a local none photographic business might carry?)

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2014

Many businesses carry BZA. It is used in many nasal sprays and nose drops.

I'm surprised that the BZA is mixed with the CD3. It was not in the other kits that used it.

Use 5 m;/L of BZA as well.

PE

fletch2 · Feb 19, 2014

This is only going from the MSDS listing

============= Composition/Information on Ingredients =============

Ingred Name:ETHYLENE DICHLORIDE (SARA III)
CAS:107-06-2
RTECS #:KI0525000
Fraction by Wt: 20-25%
OSHA PEL:50 PPM/C,100PPM
ACGIH TLV:10 PPM; 9293
EPA Rpt Qty:100 LBS
DOT Rpt Qty:100 LBS

Ingred Name:BENZYL ALCOHOL
CAS:100-51-6
RTECS #N3150000
Fraction by Wt: 20-25%

Ingred
Name:4-(N-ETHYL-N-2-METHANESULFONYLAMINOETHYL)-2-METHYLPHENYLENEDIA
MINE SESQUISULFATE MONOHYD
CAS:25646-71-3
RTECS #B4310000
Fraction by Wt: 15-20%

Ingred NameIETHYLENE GLYCOL
CAS:111-46-6
RTECS #:ID5950000
Fraction by Wt: 5-10%

Ingred Name:25-30
CAS:7732-18-5
RTECS #:ZC0110000

Photo Engineer · Feb 19, 2014

The stabilizing of the color developer portion was done with Sulfur Dioxide gas. If it is not listed then the CD3 goes bad in about 1 year or less.

PE

Athiril · Feb 21, 2014

Just the other day I mixed up some modified C-22, using CD-2 (dont have CD-3 on hand) and extra restrainer to cross-process an old E-4 125 speed tungsten roll. It turned out well, just very dense.

I dissolve my benzyl alcohol within isopropanol before adding. It looks quite strange and puts on a show when adding it to the solution of developer, but it will eventually dissolve, I add it before the developing agent.

You should be able to visually tell if the CD-3 is bad.

Curt · Feb 21, 2014

A personal comment on C22.

My first color print was made with C22. Omega B600, EL Nikkor, CC filter pack. The supplies came by mail from Freestyle Sales Co.. I still have that print, it was like 1975. I remember the first roll, I touched the film and the "emulsion" wiped right off! In an apartment with home processing it's a wonder I was able to make it to the printing stage. I still remember the extreme elation upon seeing that print. Those college days after Vietnam were idyllic!

Photo Engineer · Feb 21, 2014

Curt, I did my first ones in about 1958 on even earlier films and papers when I was a teen. Its been a long road to here and now.

PE

Curt · Feb 22, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Curt, I did my first ones in about 1958 on even earlier films and papers when I was a teen. Its been a long road to here and now.

PE

Ron, yes a long long road, not nearly enough time though. 1958 was definitely as Leslie Poles Hartley said:

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there"

They certainly did! I had a chance to talk with a professor emeritus at the George Eastman House who knew the creator of the Kodak Dye Transfer process. What the professor had to say about the evolution of photography was as they say; "A Kodak moment".

Curt

Photo Engineer · Feb 22, 2014

As a pre-teen, teen and adult I got to watch a good part of it unfold, and then I was finally able to take part in this great work for 32 years at EK after my military work. As you say, we did things differently, and things were, if anything, more peaceful and calm compared to today.

The US was growing as was Europe. Today, the US is in decline as is the WW economy. Ah well, such is life. I got to live something close to October Sky.........

PE

C-22 Found film

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