BW Film Frustration

I'm frustrated. I've been plagued recently by several annoying problems in my black and white film developing. You can see some recent posts -- a stain here, a mark there. Usually they're not egregious, but they tell me something's wrong. One exception is the presence of what are clearly air bells along the top edge of a roll of 120 (Acros 100) which was the top roll in a Paterson 3 tank (see image). I use 1200ml of solution in this tank which leaves a good half inch above the top reel. So I don't think "use more solution" is the remedy. I always knock the tank a few times after agitating.

I have changed some things in my process lately, though not all at once. I'm using Perceptol less and HC-110 more; recently I settled on dilution E. I upgraded to a larger Paterson tank (two rolls of 120 instead of one). I also began using inversion as my initial agitation to correct another problem which may or may not have been agitation related (previous I was doing stick rotation).

I don't want to change every variable at once to try to correct my problems. Nor do I want to make and process a bunch of test rolls before processing "critical film" (though I will if I have to). The way I see it, I could try one of three things:

1. Switch back to rotation/stick agitation. 1200ml makes the tank quite full. It calls for 1000ml, but that leaves the top reel partially exposed. I know with inverting, it takes time for the solution to run through the funnel, thus the top edge of the top roll is exposed to air the most time. But air bells are a "tank at rest" problem, I think, so I don't know if this makes sense.

2. Prewet the film. I've heard this solves a lot of uneven development problems for a lot of people, but have read a lot of things against it too. I prewet for C-41 always, but hardly ever for black and white. (And ironically [or not] I don't have these problems with my color negative processing.)

3. Use a less active HC-110 dilution -- like dilution H.

I've been doing black and white film for about five years -- which hardly makes me a pro, but I've not had these types of problems before. Or maybe I just haven't looked hard enough. Anyway, I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

Does the center column have a clip to prevent the reels from sliding up and out of the chemicals? If not, use a rubber band to lock them in place so they don't slide. This should keep the reels down and out of the foam area at the top. Also, you can use a drop or two of Edwal LFN in the developer to prevent foaming, so less chance of "air bells" forming. You can pre-soak for three or more minutes to avoid the spots.

If bubbles are a problem perhaps add a drop of photo-flo to the solution. This will disrupt the surface tension that makes bubbles stick and should have no affect on the process.

bvy said:

I'm frustrated. I've been plagued recently by several annoying problems in my black and white film developing. You can see some recent posts -- a stain here, a mark there. Usually they're not egregious, but they tell me something's wrong. One exception is the presence of what are clearly air bells along the top edge of a roll of 120 (Acros 100) which was the top roll in a Paterson 3 tank (see image).

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If it is possible for the top reel to shift up on the center shaft, it probably did. They used to make a clip to prevent that, but I found even the clip would slide up.

If you can make a ring (like a napkin ring) the exact size of the difference between the top of the top reel and the inside of the lid funnel, you can prevent any possible reel shifting.

Bill Burk said:

If it is possible for the top reel to shift up on the center shaft, it probably did. They used to make a clip to prevent that, but I found even the clip would slide up.

If you can make a ring (like a napkin ring) the exact size of the difference between the top of the top reel and the inside of the lid funnel, you can prevent any possible reel shifting.

Click to expand...

Good thought. I just checked. There's really no clearance between the top reel and the funnel -- and even when I pushed the reel in place with the funnel (which would be its highest point) there was ample solution above the reel.

The other possibility is that maybe the amount of solution inside the core tank is less than you poured in...

Maybe some stayed in the funnel.

The following site is very useful for those using HC-110.

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/hc110/

A pre-soak is not a cure-all as some may suggest. In fact Ilford suggests not using it for their films. For a dilute developer like HC-110 dilution E it really is not necessary. I usually use HC-110 at a dilution of 1+49 (essentially dilution E) with no problems with a stainless steel tank and reels. Personally I have only had a problem when using plastic tanks and reels.

Try filling your tank first and then adding the reels.

I use HC110 to process two rolls of 120 film in a Paterson Multi-Reel 3 tank - which, if I read your post correctly, is what you're doing. I've never used a clip in that tank, only use 1000ml of solution (I checked with water and 1000ml covers two reels ok in my tank). I've never had those kind of marks. The only time I had similar marks (though not as uniform as those tbh) was processing a single 120 reel in the Universal tank without a clip - I now use a rubber band to hold the reel in place. I use an inversion method of agitation.

If you use a lot more developer than the tank is designed for, inversion agitation will not work well - you need enough air in the tank to displace the developer when you invert the tank. You only need the chemicals just above the top of the reels, not a good half inch above.

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Bill Burk said:

The other possibility is that maybe the amount of solution inside the core tank is less than you poured in...

Maybe some stayed in the funnel.

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Unless I'm missing something, it should level out on either side of the funnel, right?

Peltigera said:

If you use a lot more developer than the tank is designed for, inversion agitation will not work well - you need enough air in the tank to displace the developer when you invert the tank. You only need the chemicals just above the top of the reels, not a good half inch above.

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I considered this. It is a lot of solution, but it's not at capacity, and I can hear/feel movement inside the tank when agitating. Could too much solution cause the problem shown?

To someone else's point, 1000ml of solution leaves part of the top reel exposed. It may just barely cover the film with the tank on a perfectly level surface. Maybe your tank is different?

I have little doubt that you have thought of these two but here goes just in case. Could it be that the problem only started when you moved to the bigger tank and could it be that the amount of bubbles in your water has increased as a consequence.

In either or both cases the larger amount of water combined with inherent gas might make it difficult to tap the bottom of the tank hard enough to shift all the bubbles.

I could be way off beam here but moving back to a smaller tank and doing one film at a time might at least help determine if the tank size and consequent amount of water has anything to do with it. As an added bonus a one film tank might also determine if there was any movement of the reels in the two reell set-up although based on what you have said your problems don't sound as if it is lack of developer failing to cover the top reel.

pentaxuser

I have just seen your other post where you mention using only distilled water for development so forget my "gas" theory. There aren't any bubbles in distilled water, are there and while I have never used any I didn't think that you can make bubbles by any normal means using distilled water or can you?

pentaxuser

When you first fill the tank with each chemical [that includes the presoak] do you thump the tank on a thick pad like these [http://www.utrechtart.com/Speedball-Linoleum-Block--Mounted-MP-40431-001-i1015402.utrecht] to jolt off the air bells?

bvy said:

I'm frustrated. I've been plagued recently by several annoying problems in my black and white film developing.

2. Prewet the film. I've heard this solves a lot of uneven development problems for a lot of people, but have read a lot of things against it too. I prewet for C-41 always, but hardly ever for black and white. (And ironically [or not] I don't have these problems with my color negative processing.)

Click to expand...

Perhaps you should. I can't comment on the plastic tanks you use as I've never used them. I use the same 2-120 reel all stainless Honeywell Nikkor tank I've used for the past 35 plus years with HC-100 Dilution B. You can get new stainless tanks or buy the the Honeywell tanks used at auction. I also own a 4-120 reel tank that I've never used. I use regular tap water for all solutions and have never "tapped" the tank to dislodge bubbles or anything. FWIW I only shoot Tri-X.

I pre-mix the Developer, Stop, Fix and put them in graduates in a 68 deg water bath, 32 oz of each solution. I load the film onto the Nikkor stainless reels (or whatever reels I own) and put them inside the tank. I presoak for about 1-2 min, and I invert while rotating for my agitation. I agitate continuously for the first 30 sec, and then for 10 sec every minute (or 5 sec every 30 sec if I'm bored). I start my timing when I start pouring in the solution and stop the time as I start to pour it out. I fill the tank until it starts to run out the top and dump the rest (except for the fixer) which I re-use. I usually use a water rinse after the stop bath to extend the fixer life, but that is not necessary.

I don't have any development issues so don't know why you're having so much trouble. I suspect you may be making it harder than it is, and your "equipment" may be contributing to it. If you do decide to use stainless reels, do yourself a favor and practice loading them in the light with some junk film so you don't ruin good film in the dark. Good luck. L

bvy said:

Unless I'm missing something, it should level out on either side of the funnel, right?

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Maybe air pressure below and a vacuum formed above when inverting the tank and righting it back up... maybe the last of the solution is slow to go back down the funnel.

Bill Burk said:

Maybe air pressure below and a vacuum formed above when inverting the tank and righting it back up... maybe the last of the solution is slow to go back down the funnel.

Click to expand...

Yeah, that kind of gets to what I was alluding to in my point 1, although the "gurgling" stops right away after I put the tank down from agitating. The airbells shown are pretty discrete, meaning they had to sit undisturbed for some length of time. So I don't know.

Sirius Glass said:

When you first fill the tank with each chemical [that includes the presoak] do you thump the tank on a thick pad like these [http://www.utrechtart.com/Speedball-Linoleum-Block--Mounted-MP-40431-001-i1015402.utrecht] to jolt off the air bells?

Click to expand...

I tap on the bottom of my utility sink which is fiberglass -- so it has some "give."

bvy said:

Yeah, that kind of gets to what I was alluding to in my point 1, although the "gurgling" stops right away after I put the tank down from agitating. The airbells shown are pretty discrete, meaning they had to sit undisturbed for some length of time. So I don't know.

Click to expand...

Geez, my stainless tank doesn't gurgle, though my stomach sometimes does......L

Rick A said:

Also, you can use a drop or two of Edwal LFN in the developer to prevent foaming, so less chance of "air bells" forming. You can pre-soak for three or more minutes to avoid the spots.

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Do you use the Edwal product every time you develop, Rick? Also, do you presoak every time?

ETA: I'm not opposed to trying one or the other; I'm wondering which comes with the least risk (according to those that say that not to presoak/add wetting agent).

A Paterson 3 tank is quite old.

Is there a volume recommendation on the tank, and if so, does the 1200 ml of solution match that recommendation?

In any event, be careful with any recommendations you see here about volumes, unless it is clear that the people who are making them are using the same vintage () equipment.

I mostly use the most recent version of the Paterson tanks - the Super System 4 tanks. There is no place for any solution to be trapped in that system. I also have a few of the earlier version - the System 4 tanks - which might have a reservoir that could trap fluid, if fluid flow was blocked.

Are you able to try a check of the fluid level when the fluid is poured in through the top?

EDIT: FWIW, I use a pre-wet, the two 120 reel Super System 4 tanks and replenished HC-110 dilution E and I've only once had a problem with air bells in the last 5 years.

Hi,
I have seen this a number of times on my films. I did not have a clue about what was going on, until I saw this thread and explanation on the Film-and-Darkroom-User site (FADU.ORG.UK).
I believe that Peter Hogan has explained what it is. After I started to do things as he described, I have not seen it again.
Hope it works for you.
Jon

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=591&highlight=reel

I could never get rid of those nasty bubble marks on 120, so I started rotary processing back in 1987. Never looked back.

In more than 47 years of photography and 40 years of teaching people photography I have never found a single situation where development problems have not been cured by three basic steps:

• Ensure that the tank is thoroughly clean - this means giving it and the reels a final rinse with very hot water (especially if Photoflo or similar has been used).
• Always sharply tap the bottom of the tank after each and every inversion sequence.
• Always use a pre-soak of at least 2 minutes.

Hope you solve your problems.

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

Those of you who look at the link that jonogmun kindly gives may be confused as the term washaid is used. In the link referred to, my reading of the term washaid is that it is wetting agent that is being referred to and not the normal washaid that some might use to assist with removal of film or paper fixer.

pentaxuser