BW Develop/Print/Scan

[pbromaghin]

I'm not against lab recommendations here in public, I'm just not in favor of discussing scanning here.

The difference is that it's simply not public in the sense that only group members would see it. Those of us who don't care wouldn't see it.

Please don't think I was contradicting you. My thoughts are exactly along the same lines. What good is film if you can't get it processed?

 

[CGW]

I'm back. To address your three points.

First, look at the title of the thread. I bet a lot of people who may or may not have had something to add about the 'focus of APUG' didn't realize that a big discussion about that topic was occurring in this thread.

Second, I never knew about the group that you mentioned. When I found out about it the other day, I asked to join. I still haven't been approved. So maybe it's not as good of an outlet as people are making it out to be. It certainly isn't very active.

Third, it might be a fine line, but it's still a line. If the mods have to enforce a 'no scanning discussions' rule, they could just as easily enforce a 'no darkroom attacks' rule or a 'no inkjet printing' rule or a 'no monitor calibration rule' or any number of other rules that you wish to set up. I really haven't seen a lot of anti-darkroom comments here on APUG. Clearly if you are making them here, you are trolling and should get the boot.

I have seen plenty of snobbery towards digital though, with comments like "I don't look at photos in the gallery if they aren't scanned from prints. They are unfinished." It's part of the reason why I essentially share no work with the APUG community other than the postcard exchange. I really can't be bothered with that kind of crap.

I just want to remind everyone for the hundredth time that I see this rigidity as hurting APUG and hurting traditional methods in general. Not because I think reading 100 'Which scanner to buy?' threads is fun. You all seem to believe that scanner discussions is the crack in the dam that will unleash full digi-hell upon APUG. I'm viewing it as a concession to get new users to the site and interested in traditional methods, as well as a spring board to talk about some interesting topics related to film technology.

Amen. The "Flat Earth Society" vibe is really unfortunate.

 

[Aristophanes]

The problem here on APUG is the constant anti film and darkroom attacks from digital users. That spills across to discussion about scanning, and then digital output. It's a fine line.

Ian

The problem in this thread was quite the opposite. A non-Moderator jumped in and started a hush on scan talk related to lab services and hinting at a Moderator thread shutdown, using the word pollution to describe the scan talk.

This come across as being anti-lab, and then a Mod came in said that lab scan talk would be tolerated.

Hardly embracing of the labs that still probably do far more analog work than all the darkroom hobby guys put together, and hardly a welcome mat to APUG advertisers. Support for film falls far short of unequivocal here despite severe industry distress. Some people are so busy protecting their turf and feel emasculated by digital they cannot see the big picture. Film needs labs and labs scan. Discuss. Get over it.

 

[zsas]

I believe those who wish to discuss have been given latitude to discuss 1) hybrid group, 2) soap box, 3) the new thread discussing labs, 4) discussions about scanning in the context of posting to Apug has been permitted. How is the community of Apug hardly embracing labs? I believe the 4 above are much more liberal interpretions of the Terms of Service.

If someone warns a new user that scan talk is generally frowned upon that is being generous because the terms of service made it quite clear. I believe the OP is getting what he wanted in this thread, but this thread blossomed into a discussion about the community as a whole and what the A in Apug means or in some folks opinion should mean. Start a new thread or contact Sean?!

 

[CGW]

I believe those who wish to discuss have been given latitude to discuss 1) hybrid group, 2) soap box, 3) the new thread discussing labs, 4) discussions about scanning in the context of posting to Apug has been permitted. How is the community of Apug hardly embracing labs? I believe the 4 above are much more liberal interpretions of the Terms of Service.

If someone warns a new user that scan talk is generally frowned upon that is being generous because the terms of service made it quite clear. I believe the OP is getting what he wanted in this thread, but this thread blossomed into a discussion about the community as a whole and what the A in Apug means or in some folks opinion should mean. Start a new thread or contact Sean?!

Good chance he's already following this or should be. Don't think these issues can be fluffed off again.

 

[Sean]

It is simple really. There isn't a single thing I could do to please everyone when it comes to this issue. I could add some digital and there would be fallout, I could continue to adhere to the charter and there will be some fallout. I had a lot of concern over this in the past, sleepless nights trying to figure out how to please all parties involved in this debate and keep APUG to my vision, and it almost drove me mad. I made the decision years ago to adhere to APUG maintaining a narrow focused scope and drawing a specific line (see the charter on the home page). This did wonders for me and our moderator team as the 'gray area' evaporated so did a great deal of our stress in managing this busy forum. Having such a well defined direction was a good thing for the day to day running of APUG. These issues still pop up from time to time and we have to come in and essentially post the same statements. The narrow scope of APUG is praised by some and loathed by some, but at the end of the day there are 100,000's of places to discuss all things D, but not so with Traditional. Therefore, I feel it makes more sense to cater to that one little oasis which remains. Why deny such an entity the right to adhere to it's chosen path? Will this "kill" or "harm" traditional photography? I know we continue to register 20-30 new people a day which says to me we are doing something right. Our stats are always strong for such a niche site. We give traditional companies/mom & pop shops extremely cheap advertising here, many I do not even charge for ads because they are struggling in the current economy. We seem to be one of the few photo forums where members have direct lines of communication to traditional manufacturers. APUG is what it is and can't be all things to all people, nor can we be some kind of supreme savior to traditional photography, that is too much to pin on any single organization. Those who continue to wrestle with the scope of this site, might ultimately find this is not the venue for them. I know we might lose some members because of that or disappoint some people, it's nothing new when it comes to running such a venue. Taking it even further, if a mass exodus occurred over our scope, it might prove the venue itself is not viable but that has yet to be indicated in the slightest.

 

[Toffle]

Thank you, Sean...

"like" button

 

[Klainmeister]

Thank you Sean, I really appreciate your input both in this thread as well as the countless hours you've spent devoted to the medium.

 

[removed account4]

The problem in this thread was quite the opposite. A non-Moderator jumped in and started a hush on scan talk related to lab services and hinting at a Moderator thread shutdown, using the word pollution to describe the scan talk.

This come across as being anti-lab, and then a Mod came in said that lab scan talk would be tolerated.

Hardly embracing of the labs that still probably do far more analog work than all the darkroom hobby guys put together, and hardly a welcome mat to APUG advertisers. Support for film falls far short of unequivocal here despite severe industry distress. Some people are so busy protecting their turf and feel emasculated by digital they cannot see the big picture. Film needs labs and labs scan. Discuss. Get over it.

i am the "non moderator" you keep referring to ..

did you even read what i said ?
i find it remarkable that someone who has been here for a few months
has any idea of any of the history of this website ( unless you have been lurking for 8 or 9 years ) ..
if you read what i said ...
i said the scope of apug is narrow ( the owner just chimed in and said the same thing )

i hinted of a thread shutdown ??
i said you were polluting the thread with your gripes about how
apug wasn't custom tailored to your needs and suggested
that if you have troubles with the way the site is run contact the people in charge
... instead you continued to gripe and suggest apug was a backwater
.. because as an analog site, it doesn't have forums on scanning and the needs
of people doing hybrid and digital photography

anti lab ??
i agreed with you ... labs for the most part have to do the hybrid route ...
i also posted a link for you for the hybrid group which discusses what you were looking to discuss ...
you scan film, great .. so do i and a lot of people here ... don't hold it against the people who don't

emasculated by digital ?
i am a commercial photographer, and use a digital camera and digital technology and commercial labs,
... maybe you should stop generalizing ...

if you don't agree to the charter and terms and conditions of apug
i am not sure why you agreed to them and became a member ...

where's jorge when you need him ?

thanks sean -
what toffle adn kleinmeister said !

 

[Tim Gray]

Thanks for the response Sean.

I guess that settles it. Until the next time it comes up

 

[zsas]

Thanks Sean so much! Being a leader is about taking a position, sticking with it, using data to support it and affirming that position with the larger community! I highly respect you and what you have created! All things will follow when you have a vision and support and YOU MOST CERTAINLY DO!

 

[CGW]

Back to the important stuff like "Your most recent MF purchase." Right.

Suspect we'll be revisiting this again soon.

 

[pbromaghin]

Sean +++

 

[SafetyBob]

Wow, that took some time reading this entire thread. And it points out why I first simply registered and have finally subscribed to this amazing forum. All of us love cameras and film.....nothing else like it. It's very motivating indeed to see such a active discussion over analog film (and it's usage). I am glad Sean put the "no digital" thing in the rules and I think we all try and live up to that rule and just like any other "rule" there are going to be grey areas, as long as we try to limit it to what positively effects analog film usage I don't think any moderator will come down on us. The key being using analog film with analog cameras.

I believe a "what is the best scanner" discussion would be best for DPUG and some mention directing us for proper techniques and processes using those scanners FROM this forum would be benificial to all, perhaps a sticky is all that is needed. When I need to know specifics about how to maximize my scanner, let DPUG be the leader there, just tell me where I need to go to get to the software sub-forum or the Epson V700 sub-formum, you get the idea.

I don't think the occasional "I use VueScan" or "try 16-bit for better color depth" in a quick reply for help would be hurtful to our cause. Whatever method we use to display our analog film to the rest of the world only enriches others lives and promotes the whole analog film experience that all of us love......whether we use analog or digital or a combination of both to display it or promote it.

Someone mentioned that this is an experience that matures. They are right. First I started taking pictures on my parents Kodak Instamatic. Then I got my own. That led me to working with a pro when I was in highschool, steadily I slowed down after college then those horrible first digital cameras came out. I knew I had to come back to film......it took almost a decade to come back full swing after I decided I wanted my "good" pictures again. You will notice nowhere have I mentioned "developing". Never did it, ever. All sent out. Then I was told about APUG......now I have I don't know how many cameras and all the flashes and tripods and cords and who knows what........but now I am about to enter the world of film developing, why? THIS FORUM and you guys.

For now I have to have things scanned and am trying to bring that home to save money too.....now, thanks to YOU guys, I have started "thinking" about a real darkroom. Again, that would have never crossed my mind until the success stories I hear of here over and over again. Especially the encouragement to proceed at my own pace. I just wish I would have started this 10 or 20 years ago........

Thank you Sean

Bob E.

 

[Sean]

Thanks Bob, looking forward to seeing your darkroom build