BW Develop/Print/Scan

Henry Halifax said:

What I hear is a number of people are not like-minded but close minded because they want a sanctuary closed to certain types of film users who are not orthodox enough to own a darkroom.

Click to expand...

Not true, I use labs. I'd love to see more people use them too.

The reality is though that each lab I use has a personality. Like photography in general it's not the equipment that matters most it's the way it's used.

I simply don't care how a lab gets the work done, it is completely irrelevant to me because the only thing that matters is that the prints/scans are right. If they can do that they can use a $99 scanner they just picked up at Office Depot for all I care.

Henry Halifax said:

All that is really needed from my perspective is a separate sub-forum to discuss the entirety of lab services for analog photography.

Click to expand...

Umm, just FYI, there's already a group/sub-forum for that here at APUG. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

henry

it seems what you want is a forum where you can discuss skanning techniques, as well as the quality of photography
that is produced by a variety of labs. you want user-opinions, not PR from the lab itself.

why don't you set up your own "group" where people can discuss their experiences with whatever lab they use. the group can discuss whatever you want ... chemistry, mini lab machines, how duggal printed your 35mm fuji color
on a shagg rug or the local grocery store turned your kodachrome's image into cake frosting ...

i don't think that apug is going to change its mission statement anytime soon.
the genie never really was in the bottle ...

The Terms of Service for being a member here are quite clear to me:

"-Questions regarding digital techniques or digital techniques connected with traditional processes should be posted at hybridphoto.com (or the many other digital oriented sites)."

Henry Halifax said:

Technically auto exposure and autofocus are digital,

Click to expand...

They are electronic and predate digital photography, having been introduced for film (analogue) cameras. It became convenient to use IC chips to accomplish it, but not all IC chips are digital and digital is not a requirement.

"The first camera to feature automatic windows exposure was the selenium light meter-equipped, fully automatic Super Kodak Six-20 of 1938"

Leica patented an AutoFocus system in 1960.

Horrors! People sell scanners on APUG!

^They do, although in the correct place
"[Classifieds] Misc. -Anything Goes
Post items for sale that are not necessarily related to traditional photography."

Everything has a place here in accordance with the rules set forth in the terms of service

OP was given leeway to generally discuss the services of labs, not sure why the rules need a change here? But if so, Sean should be contacted or a thread in the Soapbox opened

zsas said:

The Terms of Service for being a member here are quite clear to me:

"-Questions regarding digital techniques or digital techniques connected with traditional processes should be posted at hybridphoto.com (or the many other digital oriented sites)."

Click to expand...

So lab queries at APUG is restricted to those labs subscribing to the identical creed as APUG.

It is unclear for many labs if their procedures are analog pure or polluted by digital processes, but that's not the question here. The question is how good are their services. Unfortunately for those who want an unsullied analog sanctuary this requires some discussion of scanning. A moderator even called scanning integral.

This thread went sideways when a non-moderator saw the word scan in the title and hushed comment under threat of a thread shutdown. This does a disservice to anyone looking for lab advice which is hypocritical considering one of the most prominent advertisers on APUG has the words scan and digital in bold letters. Are they trying to get APUG subscriber biz, do you think?

The advertiser doesn't get into the debate about analog purity, they just want us to keep using film or they go under. Sadly, some analog purists don't factor in the needs of those who do not do the darkroom thing. Instead of being like-minded they get angry and would rather see all lab discussions shut down rather than encourage the use of film by any means.

I just wish APUG was essentially FPUG - Film Photography Users Group. If you use film and encourage the use of it, it's good. People WILL be encouraged to pick up an enlarger and try their hand at printing. People WILL be encouraged to try large format. People WILL be encouraged to try alt processes. So on and so forth.

I'm not particularly interested on how one sets up their ink jet to make prints from files. There are plenty of sites for that kind of thing. I agree with that. As there are sites on how to use your digital camera, etc. APUG could say those bits are off limits. Or not. I don't really care - I don't have to go to those subforums any more than I have to go to the Lighting forum. As I've said before, there really aren't that many sites which have up to date and knowledgeable discussions on film scanning and color correction. People keep saying there are, but where are they? I've learned more about that from cinematography sites than anywhere else.

The way I look at it is without film, most of us are dead in the water. It's the only thing that is really keeping the whole analogue side of things going. There aren't many new film cameras or enlargers being made still. Silver halide paper is surely connected to the film market. And the film market is hurting right now, in a bad way (Kodak and Fuji - hopefully Ilford is doing better). Anything we can do to encourage film usage is good in my mind. Having young people picking up film is good. I don't want to be an ageist, but if the only people shooting film and discussing film are 40+ and are using film because thats what they started out with, well that's not good for the long run. We need new blood. We need to convince people to put down their iPhones and shoot the real thing. And from my observations, those people DO NOT LIKE APUG, because of the militant stance against scanning and related discussions. Like I said, I know multiple young people who shoot only film now, some picking up 4x5, some getting enlargers, and they don't come to this site because they don't like it. They say things like, "APUG is stupid. How do they post pictures online if they are so against scanning." Etc.

Most new people using film for the first time buy some film, shoot some pictures, and drop it off at CVS or Walmart for developing. They like the old camera. They like the way the pictures look but eventually they get sick of the crappy scans and scratches from CVS. They want to try out B&W. So they buy some equipment to do it at home. They realize they need a scanner to deal with the B&W film and to get away from CVS. They do some research online and buy an Epson Vxxx. They get frustrated with the color they are getting out of the scanner. They talk online with others and muddle their way through it. They see an enlarger on Craigslist and decide to have a go with wet printing. Up until that last step, not ONE of those things is encouraged actively by APUG. And that's dumb in my mind. Why would someone who did the first many steps of that process in another community come to APUG for the last one, when the other communities nurtured them all along the way?

Henry Halifax said:

What I hear is a number of people are not like-minded but close minded because they want a sanctuary closed to certain types of film users who are not orthodox enough to own a darkroom.

All that is really needed from my perspective is a separate sub-forum to discuss the entirety of lab services for analog photography.

Click to expand...

Another way of looking at it is people who wish to go down a digital route after shooting the originals on film want to have changes to the site to suit them.

No-one going down a scanning route is being shut out on APUG, people will discuss analog labs who can print your films, however you really need to ask the labs themselves about their digital output, that is a variable that they can choose, so even two labs using the same scanning equipment can differ in their quality in that respect.

Having worked selling equipment to labs I've visited quite a number, what's often fogotten is that high end pro labs often use the same equipment as a high street store, all that differs is quality control & attention to detail. As scans take time they normally scan to suit the print size, highest quality scans tie up theit scanner for much longer.

APUG is about sharing the analog aspects of photography pure & simple. It's not about discussion of Digital techniques.

Ian

Tim Gray said:

I just wish APUG was essentially FPUG - Film Photography Users Group. If you use film and encourage the use of it, it's good. People WILL be encouraged to pick up an enlarger and try their hand at printing. People WILL be encouraged to try large format. People WILL be encouraged to try alt processes. So on and so forth.

Click to expand...

APUG incorporates all uses of film, most of us have no interested in discouraging film use even when the images are then scanned.

However not everyone starts with film, some make wet plates, hand coated dry plates other paper negatives, but they are all analog mediums.

Ian

Tim Gray said:

I just wish APUG was essentially FPUG - Film Photography Users Group.

Click to expand...

And if it were where would I learn about paper photography, and wet plate, and bed sheet cyanotype photography, and enlarging, and contact printing, and...

Ian Grant said:

APUG incorporates all uses of film, most of us have no interested in discouraging film use even when the images are then scanned.

However not everyone starts with film, some make wet plates, hand coated dry plates other paper negatives, but they are all analog mediums.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I should have said origination in analog mediums. I'm surprise you guys are fixating on that part of my statement. And 'not discouraging' is not the same as 'encouraging'.

But seriously, do you guys really think any one goes from a DSLR to wet plates without using film first? I think all these techniques are wonderful and should be discussed here. If you take all of photography, and remove digital camera capture and printing from a computer, you have a nice little community that is seriously under represented on the web and could use an influx of new people.

New people want to be part of it. And pretty much every person I know on the internet who is under 35, started on digital and is now shooting film, is not on APUG. If I were on the APUG board or whatever it is called, that would concern me.

I'm done, which I'm sure many will be happy about. I've made my arguments. I think APUG is shooting itself in the foot if it doesn't encourage new members to try out film and traditional techniques.

Ian Grant said:

Another way of looking at it is people who wish to go down a digital route after shooting the originals on film want to have changes to the site to suit them.

No-one going down a scanning route is being shut out on APUG, people will discuss analog labs who can print your films, however you really need to ask the labs themselves about their digital output, that is a variable that they can choose, so even two labs using the same scanning equipment can differ in their quality in that respect.

APUG is about sharing the analog aspects of photography pure & simple. It's not about discussion of Digital techniques.

Ian

Click to expand...

I think it naive to say it is pure and simple. By your own definition use of a non-pure lab is a violation of the APUG ethos and cannot be a question here. This excludes most lab talk which comes across as exclusionary hypocrisy because prominent banner ads here advertise to APUGians their scan and digital services.

You can advertise on APUG but God forbid a discussion of those services taint the analog purity. We want your biz from APUG but don't you dare talk about it on APUG.

I'm not going to go over all the old arguments, but as a poster who has asked exactly the same question as the one that originated this thread - recommendations for labs producing good scans - I *am* going to stick my 2p in. The advance of digital photography has not just been about creating an image, it has also been about shareability. In these internet days we expect to be able to share our images with our friends and family and, dare I say, our internet forums and galleries.

I shoot 90% film these days. When I meet people they invariably ask why, and when I point out that a) it is fun, b) quality cameras are now cheap) film isn't very expensive to buy & process d) overall I spend far less on photography gear than a d****l user (or I would if I didn't have 14+ and counting cameras )

The real surprise to many people when I start talking to them is however the realisation that they can shoot film *and* get a CD of digital images they can share with their friends. Most youngsters have never even thought about this (and quite a few oldsters too) - why should they. If you have never used film, why would you ever investigate what you could do with it? But, this is what will potentially keep film selling - the ability to fit film into the same lifestyle of sharing images. In this context, knowing where labs are that produce good value for money scans is invaluable. My experience is that quality/cost varies considerably.

IMHO this *should* be part of APUG. It doesn't detract from any sub-forum about the different analogue processes, but nobody, but nobody, is going to leap straight in to film and start making wet plates. The process is incremental; some people may stop at a simple shoot and then lab process, others may go on to develop more involved skills.

The total irony of all this is that having come back to film, but only using and promoting scan services, I now have an opportunity to build a darkroom, and have acquired some equipment which in due course I will start trying to use, for the *first time ever* at the age of 52. Up to now I have *never* developed my own film, and have shot 1000s of images.

I can totally understand why a newcomer to film might be put off by APUG, and IMHO we should tolerate a cut-off division between pure analogue and digital a little further over, in the hope/expectation that we can help people develop (joke!) into more serious analogue photographers given time.

As for DPUG, its just a backwater. Why anyone with a predominant interest in film would ever go there regularly is beyond me; the action is definitely here, and I enjoy reading about processes I don't understand in the knowledge that perhaps one day I will have a go at new things.

I think it is great that there are people who like APUG so much that they want to expand it to cover more subjects than it was set up to cover.

It would however be fundamentally different if general scanning topics became part of the site's "mandate".

Not because they would "pollute" the site, but because they would tend to "dilute" it instead.

IMHO APUG has been successful to date because of its narrow focus. I could be wrong, but I think that the decision to keep that focus narrow was a business decision made by Sean that has been supported by many members over many years. It is certainly the case that this discussion has been repeated dozens, if not hundreds of times since I joined.

I do think that the focus could be maintained while the interests of those who want to discuss scanning are better served if there was better integration between APUG and DPUG or other sites.

please post whatever information you have about whatever labs you use in this thread

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

you can mention their services, if you liked what they did, or didn't ...

Another vote for North Coast Photo Services. I have been using them for a year or two and have been very pleased. I shoot B&W, color neg, slides, almost all 120. I used to use A&I in Hollywood (excellent work), but they were hard to get to, on the expensive side and not particularly user friendly. NCPS has been very reliable and their mid priced scans have been entirely adequate for the personal and moderate commercial work I do. I am very happy with their custom enlargements, and as I don't know or have photoshop (and my darkroom reconstruction is still in the planning stages) they have done a great job for me retouching portraits at very reasonable cost.

markbarendt said:

Umm, just FYI, there's already a group/sub-forum for that here at APUG. (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Click to expand...

Wow, Mark. Good catch.

It appears that 90% of the complaints in this thread are already addressed.

So what's wrong with moving the discussion there?

The vast majority of active APUG members are darkroom users, a smaller number shoot film then just scan, and a smaller number use a hybrid film/dital neg/alt process.

Show me the numbers. None of your statements, or anyone else's here on this, are ever quantified. Just soothing generalizations--that's all I'm hearing.

Vast? Smaller? C'mon.

Another lab for those looking for one check BWC in Dallas,TX. They were recommended to me by a professional commercial photographer whose work is excellent. I have only used them for developing transparency film and found them to be reliable and of high quality. They are a full service lab and may offer what some of you are seeking.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

pbromaghin said:

Wow, Mark. Good catch.

It appears that 90% of the complaints in this thread are already addressed.

So what's wrong with moving the discussion there?

Click to expand...

I'm not against lab recommendations here in public, I'm just not in favor of discussing scanning here.

The difference is that it's simply not public in the sense that only group members would see it. Those of us who don't care wouldn't see it.

pbromaghin said:

Wow, Mark. Good catch.

It appears that 90% of the complaints in this thread are already addressed.

So what's wrong with moving the discussion there?

Click to expand...

This is contradicted by this:

zsas said:

The Terms of Service for being a member here are quite clear to me:

"-Questions regarding digital techniques or digital techniques connected with traditional processes should be posted at hybridphoto.com (or the many other digital oriented sites)."

Click to expand...

Lab processes are not so readily apparent to the neat confines corresponding to the latter.

But this thread belongs not in "Darkroom" and not really in the hybrid section which assumes self-scanning and not the much broader discussion and interest in lab services.

Obviously a fair # of subscribers are following this discussion judging by how many are jumping in. These questions and advice need a proper home and DPUG is not the answer given the contradictions noted above and the obvious interest here. A sub-forum on APUG for labs, with no barrier to discussion of their scanning services, would be ideal. Further sub-division based on region and mail-order may also be appropriate. You cannot get more analog than the post office.

What's interesting is just how few have chipped in to support more digital discussion.

There's already places to discus the scanning scenario in the Group section, use it if yopu want it.

Now think from a differnt point of view, back in 2004 I was saying the same as you, Henry, Aristophanes, Tim etc, and getting grief, I've never had a problem with Analog/Digital personally I've used both since digital became affordable and more importantly practical. The problem here on APUG is the constant anti film and darkroom attacks from digital users. That spills across to discussion about scanning, and then digital output. It's a fine line.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

What's interesting is just how few have chipped in to support more digital discussion.

There's already places to discus the scanning scenario in the Group section, use it if yopu want it.

Now think from a differnt point of view, back in 2004 I was saying the same as you, Henry, Aristophanes, Tim etc, and getting grief, I've never had a problem with Analog/Digital personally I've used both since digital became affordable and more importantly practical. The problem here on APUG is the constant anti film and darkroom attacks from digital users. That spills across to discussion about scanning, and then digital output. It's a fine line.

Ian

Click to expand...

The problem here on APUG is the constant anti film and darkroom attacks from digital users.

What? Please show me evidence of this digital goon squad's activities on APUG. Sorry but you lost me with this one, Ian.

Ian Grant said:

What's interesting is just how few have chipped in to support more digital discussion.

There's already places to discus the scanning scenario in the Group section, use it if yopu want it.

The problem here on APUG is the constant anti film and darkroom attacks from digital users. That spills across to discussion about scanning, and then digital output. It's a fine line.

Click to expand...

I'm back. To address your three points.

First, look at the title of the thread. I bet a lot of people who may or may not have had something to add about the 'focus of APUG' didn't realize that a big discussion about that topic was occurring in this thread.

Second, I never knew about the group that you mentioned. When I found out about it the other day, I asked to join. I still haven't been approved. So maybe it's not as good of an outlet as people are making it out to be. It certainly isn't very active.

Third, it might be a fine line, but it's still a line. If the mods have to enforce a 'no scanning discussions' rule, they could just as easily enforce a 'no darkroom attacks' rule or a 'no inkjet printing' rule or a 'no monitor calibration rule' or any number of other rules that you wish to set up. I really haven't seen a lot of anti-darkroom comments here on APUG. Clearly if you are making them here, you are trolling and should get the boot.

I have seen plenty of snobbery towards digital though, with comments like "I don't look at photos in the gallery if they aren't scanned from prints. They are unfinished." It's part of the reason why I essentially share no work with the APUG community other than the postcard exchange. I really can't be bothered with that kind of crap.

I just want to remind everyone for the hundredth time that I see this rigidity as hurting APUG and hurting traditional methods in general. Not because I think reading 100 'Which scanner to buy?' threads is fun. You all seem to believe that scanner discussions is the crack in the dam that will unleash full digi-hell upon APUG. I'm viewing it as a concession to get new users to the site and interested in traditional methods, as well as a spring board to talk about some interesting topics related to film technology.