BW Develop/Print/Scan

[Erik Petersson]

I think it is a generational thing. I love using film, but have never copied in a dark room. And I'm not even very young, almost 40 now. If many younger photographers, who scan, are attracted to APUG, this might change.

 

[Bob-D659]

Scanning techniques may be off topic for Apug, and I agree with that, BUT, this is the PRODUCT AVAILABILITY Forum, and all the OP was asking was for a recommendation on a supplier who can develop and scan black and white film. Not a howto scan or which scanner to buy.

 

[Klainmeister]

I'm 23 and started in the darkroom during high school, dabbled in scanning and came directly back to darkroom work. I think this place is for people who prefer analog--period. That's why I'm here. There's plenty of resources and forums online for people doing hybrid or other digital methods, but for me, this is a sanctuary for the craftsman of the darkside. So yes, there is an overwhelming amount of people doing hybrid, but this is not the place.

 

[CGW]

I'm 23 and started in the darkroom during high school, dabbled in scanning and came directly back to darkroom work. I think this place is for people who prefer analog--period. That's why I'm here. There's plenty of resources and forums online for people doing hybrid or other digital methods, but for me, this is a sanctuary for the craftsman of the darkside. So yes, there is an overwhelming amount of people doing hybrid, but this is not the place.

Not sure if APUG realizes that it can never have too many friends. Not sure you do, either. Someone should reconsider and bring a hybrid board(not a "what's the best DSLR for me" board) onto the site. That way things "digital" are quarantined but readily available for cross-board exchanges. Not sure why this smells so badly to some hereabouts.

 

[perkeleellinen]

I think most threads like this would never be of any concern if the discussion didn't shift into what's allowed and what isn't.

If this thread stayed on topic there would probably have been no issues, after all, (there was a url link here which no longer exists) recent thread passed by without any feathers being ruffled. (there was a url link here which no longer exists) is another that could have been a flashpoint but wasn't.

Digital presence is clearly a concern, but the OP (who only joined this month) has had to labour through 6 pages of argument (including my opine) to find useful information.

 

[zsas]

To the OP, if you were a member of let's say "The Nikon Forum" would it be alright to say, B&H is an advertiser of the Nikon Forum and they sell Leica cameras too and therefore I want to talk about Leica on the Nikon forum? I understand you issue, just also consider that any org/community have a mission statement that does not get superseded by the mission/offerings of a third party (i.e., sponsor in this case).

 

[Henry Halifax]

I'm 23 and started in the darkroom during high school, dabbled in scanning and came directly back to darkroom work. I think this place is for people who prefer analog--period. That's why I'm here. There's plenty of resources and forums online for people doing hybrid or other digital methods, but for me, this is a sanctuary for the craftsman of the darkside. So yes, there is an overwhelming amount of people doing hybrid, but this is not the place.

The problem is the lab does not solely do analog and that is unavoidable. If we discuss labs, we have to discuss scanning. Those labs advertise on APUG. It is the labs that merge the issue.

Once past development any issue involving most labs is going to have to discuss scanning and prints from those labs. That is how labs stay economically viable if I am not mistaken. If that is not on the table, then APUG cannot really be said to support the full spectrum of a lab's services. That's a shame. What people prefer and what is available to the broader community is what's at stake. I am glad you prefer a darkroom. I shoot film and that's not even close to being an option for me. You want a sanctuary, I want lab services. You are implying they cannot coexist because labs that cannot avoid digital methods taint the sanctuary.

I'd like to be able to support the labs and support APUG simultaneously, but some people think that discussions should be cleansed and purified of anything digital which goes against the intent of the banner ads surrounding this thread. Clearly some people think this is a hands-on, darkroom only forum. My question as a new user: Is it?

There are a lot of good labs trying to stay viable serving analog film shooters and we should be supporting them wholeheartedly, not halfheartedly. I've got money and undeveloped film burning a hole in my pocket!

 

[Tim Gray]

Digital presence is clearly a concern, but the OP (who only joined this month) has had to labour through 6 pages of argument (including my opine) to find useful information.

Not really. I posted some useful information pretty quickly as did others. I also sent him a PM with more information that surely would have been frowned upon had I posted it openly.

The sad thing is that one of the first comments was, "It's off topic."

 

[Henry Halifax]

That's a misplaced analogy because labs are compelled to use digital services to continue offering their analog services. You may not like that crutch in some vision of analog purity, but it is simply the market reality where the last remaining hope for film sales lies.

The correct analogy would be a scenario where Leica camera owners are compelled to use Nikon lenses, which would set off a thermonuclear explosion exposing all film worldwide instantaneously

To the OP, if you were a member of let's say "The Nikon Forum" would it be alright to say, B&H is an advertiser of the Nikon Forum and they sell Leica cameras too and therefore I want to talk about Leica on the Nikon forum? I understand you issue, just also consider that any org/community have a mission statement that does not get superseded by the mission/offerings of a third party (i.e., sponsor in this case).

 

[Klainmeister]

The problem is the lab does not solely do analog and that is unavoidable. If we discuss labs, we have to discuss scanning. Those labs advertise on APUG. It is the labs that merge the issue.

Once past development any issue involving most labs is going to have to discuss scanning and prints from those labs. That is how labs stay economically viable if I am not mistaken. If that is not on the table, then APUG cannot really be said to support the full spectrum of a lab's services. That's a shame. What people prefer and what is available to the broader community is what's at stake. I am glad you prefer a darkroom. I shoot film and that's not even close to being an option for me. You want a sanctuary, I want lab services. You are implying they cannot coexist because labs that cannot avoid digital methods taint the sanctuary.

I'd like to be able to support the labs and support APUG simultaneously, but some people think that discussions should be cleansed and purified of anything digital which goes against the intent of the banner ads surrounding this thread. Clearly some people think this is a hands-on, darkroom only forum. My question as a new user: Is it?

There are a lot of good labs trying to stay viable serving analog film shooters and we should be supporting them wholeheartedly, not halfheartedly. I've got money and undeveloped film burning a hole in my pocket!

I totally understand and agree as well. I thought your question was fair game since it is services we all partake in. Just saying that turning the whole forum into a hybrid site isn't ideal. Asking about lab services seems to be completely reasonable to me, especially considering we all scan our images to get them up here anyhow. Just need to draw the line somewhere, and that's when we get into the techniques, equipment, etc and where I'd say the topic needs to find it's way to another forum because people here want to focus on traditional methods only. Hence the name of the forum.

And yes, a place can have too many friends. I think the fundamental difference is our understanding of this forum: is it a business or a community?

 

[Ian Grant]

The problem is the lab does not solely do analog and that is unavoidable. If we discuss labs, we have to discuss scanning. Those labs advertise on APUG. It is the labs that merge the issue.

There's no issue, no-ones anti people with no access to a darkroom using a lab and it's services , analog or csnned - digital. There was a sub-section covering this area but that's been floated of as hybridphoto.com now renamed DPUG

There's also no age/generation issues here either after all some of us were already using Hybrid/Digital techniques when posters like "Klainmeister" were just starting at school .

Discussions on this flare up repeatedly and the outcome is always the same. There is a need for better cross-linking of APUG & DPUG, and it's wrong for posters to state DPUG is a ghetto without taking an active part first. DPUG is the ideal place to ask Hybrid questions, there are leading experts who regularly contribute to the forum and they are jelpful and friendly.

Henry please note that I stated your original question might be a lttle off topic after you bumped the thread when you had no immediate replies. I also told you to look on Ilford's own site and then later posted a link to one of their suggested labs.

It's Sean as the site owner, the Moderators and site council members who discuss and decide what is and is not acceptable and that's why DPUG now exists.

Ian

 

[Tim Gray]

Clearly some people think this is a hands-on, darkroom only forum. My question as a new user: Is it?

Technically, yes. It is a darkroom only forum. A corollary to that is that we all use film. And not all film users print in the darkroom. Or print exclusively in the darkroom. I bet many users shoot old film cameras and then just scan. We just aren't allowed to talk about that last bit.

For example, I shoot only film. I print in the darkroom about once a month. I love it. However, not one of my family members or life long friends live in the same state as me. While I do mail them prints from time to time or give them in person, to effectively share my photos with people the people I want, it needs to be electronic. So I scan and share them online.

Also, and I think a lot of us fall into this category, I only wet print with B&W. Color gets sent out for development, gets scanned, and printed on RA4 paper from a digital file. If the powers that be at APUG think I'm alone in this with respect to color, just take a look at the really long, confusing threads about 1) the state of the Rollei C41 development kit, 2) how the heck one orders Kodak Flexicolor, and 3) the sad state of RA4 paper in sheets.

The way I see it, the film photo community has shifted a lot in the last 10 or even 5 years. Heck, even in the last 1 or 2. A decision to limit talk about digital might have made sense 4 years ago. Does it still? When I started shooting film in 2006-ish, I could still buy HIE, Kodak color paper in sheets, and get my film developed at Target or Walmart. Heck I could even buy Tri-X in CVS. Now HIE is gone. Plus-X is gone (or is it?). Who knows what's going on with Fuji. I have to send out my film for development. Yet at the same time, film is 'hip' again. New people are trying it out. The Leica M9 is out - and a lot of those users have acquired a film M to go along with it. Heck, I know 3 people online who started with digital and have moved up to 4x5, their path going from a Canon 5DII, to a rangefinder, to 4x5. None of them are on APUG. I think it's stupid that 3 young guys who are interested in shooting 4x5 aren't encouraged to be on APUG. But they don't like the analog snob factor that is here.

 

[Henry Halifax]

I think most threads like this would never be of any concern if the discussion didn't shift into what's allowed and what isn't.

If this thread stayed on topic there would probably have been no issues, after all, (there was a url link here which no longer exists) recent thread passed by without any feathers being ruffled. (there was a url link here which no longer exists) is another that could have been a flashpoint but wasn't.

Digital presence is clearly a concern, but the OP (who only joined this month) has had to labour through 6 pages of argument (including my opine) to find useful information.

That's an excellent observation. It only became a flashpoint when the word scan got comments about how the thread would be terminated, which seemed to go against the grain of the ads that in part drew me to APUG.

I would like to know of a lab on what machines they scan, at what resolutions, what delivery methods, and prices. From the ads some do this at a single price which is really cool.

In fairness, I created 2 of those 6 pages and have way too much time no my hands now being in between assignments

 

[Tim Gray]

There is a need for better cross-linking of APUG & DPUG, and it's wrong for posters to state DPUG is a ghetto without taking an active part first. DPUG is the ideal place to ask Hybrid questions, there are leading experts who regularly contribute to the forum and they are jelpful and friendly.

DPUG is a ghetto. I've tried to contribute there. I've tried to ask questions only to be told to use google and do more research. I think it's a great resource for making digital negs for alt printing processes, but that's about it.

I understand the mentality behind DPUG/HybridPhoto, but the plain fact of the matter is that if I or another user get told to go to DPUG for certain things, we check DPUG out and just decide we are better off going back to where we came from. I come to APUG for the expertise of the community. And that community is not at DPUG. Frankly, if someone needed help with scanning 35mm film, there's probably more knowledge in how to deal with that at Rangefinder Forum than there is at DPUG. If someone wanted to know about large format scanning with high end scanners, Large Format Photography forum. Alt processes from digital negs? DPUG.

 

[SuzanneR]

The main focus here is on analog photography. Just because advertisers offer services beyond that scope, doesn't mean we should change our intent here to be a deep resource for analog photography. I can't recommend any b/w labs because I soup and print myself. Going out on a limb here, but since many APUG users are darkroom enthusiasts, not a lot of them will have used the labs that advertise here, so again, I'm not sure they could recommend any of our advertisers from personal experience. Still, any business that supports the community of APUG through advertising is a business I can support if the need arises whether anyone else here has used them or not. I can report back my experience with that business. If I need some basic scanning questions answered, then I'll ask... I think we can exercise a level of discretion when it comes to including issues about scanning.

The only way to get DPUG off the ground is for these sort of questions to be asked and answered there. In fact, I've been shooting some color film, have recently employed the services of a local professional lab, Color Services in Needham, MA to soup it and make contact sheets. I've been making low res scans (yes, I scan at times!) to see what I've got. I'm probably going to explore some different options, including digital ones, to print the pictures. If I have questions about that, I have every intention of asking them over at DPUG.

 

[Ian Grant]

Perhaps an issue Tim's raising is that many of us who could answer many of the simpler scanning questions aren't logging on to DPUG that frequently. It is a forum that's becoming more active after quite a slow start.

Ian

 

[Tim Gray]

Ian: yes. Though I tried back when DPUG was Hybridphoto, and I tried a bit on DPUG. I'm just not interested in DPUG - I gave it a chance and don't really like the community that much. And I try on photo.net, fredmiranda.com, and rangefinderforum.com.

The thing is, a lot of those questions could be answered by a simple FAQ or some sticky threads. It's not like new scanners or scanning software are being released every year. A quick rundown of the pros and cons of a Nikon Coolscan, the Epson V700 and V600, and a couple others, along with some descriptions or even links to any of the tutorials on the web on how to use Vuescan, Silverfast, and Epson scan would go a long way to answering a lot of those questions. Heck, even just a list of links for information would be better than a vague "Go to DPUG". At least give them a landing point at DPUG where some vital, often asked and often answered questions are detailed in a clear manner.

A perfect example of where APUG expertise crosses over with scanning: dealing with the orange mask on C-41 films. I've linked to the discussions on APUG about the orange mask countless times from other forums when people say that inverting the orange base is THE problem with scanning and how difficult it is and why can't Kodak just do away with the orange base and that its only there for wet printing, etc. Just this week on another forum:

I always wonder why the orange film base is still kept for negative film. As far as I understand, it is no longer needed as all labs are now digital and a clear film base would simplify scanning a lot. Perhaps they don't want to invest in any new research in an admittedly dying technology.

 

[Henry Halifax]

I agree with the discretion. I have no urge to discuss histograms of scans.

I will courteously disagree about DPUG. If I have a question about a lab's service regarding development and prints as well as scans (like my thread title) then it makes zero sense to carve off a section of that discussion that makes a few darkroom analog purists uncomfortable and register at another site and have that discrete discussion there for fear of tainting the sanctuary or deep resource of APUG. I have no urge to split my discussions between two different sites when the lab in question offers comprehensive services. If they offer them as such, they should be discussed as such in one place. I do not see it as an obligation to get DPUG off the ground as the reference place for lab discussions. That is a decision that the owner of this site may have to make, but I suspect it would negatively affect advertising revenues.

Is APUG the big tent of analog photography or is it a hands-on darkroom of hobbyists to the exclusion of labs? From your inference here it seems that for color we should also be going to DPUG.

I am not trying to paint anyone into a corner, but I would like to know if we can discuss a lab's services in their entirety on APUG without the threat of thread closure.

The problem with APUG is the more I browse the more I think I should get a medium format camera instead of my old Minolta.

The main focus here is on analog photography. Just because advertisers offer services beyond that scope, doesn't mean we should change our intent here to be a deep resource for analog photography. I can't recommend any b/w labs because I soup and print myself. Going out on a limb here, but since many APUG users are darkroom enthusiasts, not a lot of them will have used the labs that advertise here, so again, I'm not sure they could recommend any of our advertisers from personal experience. Still, any business that supports the community of APUG through advertising is a business I can support if the need arises whether anyone else here has used them or not. I can report back my experience with that business. If I need some basic scanning questions answered, then I'll ask... I think we can exercise a level of discretion when it comes to including issues about scanning.

The only way to get DPUG off the ground is for these sort of questions to be asked and answered there. In fact, I've been shooting some color film, have recently employed the services of a local professional lab, Color Services in Needham, MA to soup it and make contact sheets. I've been making low res scans (yes, I scan at times!) to see what I've got. I'm probably going to explore some different options, including digital ones, to print the pictures. If I have questions about that, I have every intention of asking them over at DPUG.

 

[Bob-D659]

Clearly off topic for this thread but:

Not every colour printing lab is all digital, http://thelabworks.com/traditionalservices.php#printsfromneg/ isn't, and neither are a number of other pro labs. I'd guess you would also have to upgrade all the commercial scanner software to support masked and maskless colour negative film.

 

[Klainmeister]

The problem with APUG is the more I browse the more I think I should get a medium format camera instead of my old Minolta.

Uh oh....someone has GAS!

 

[SuzanneR]

The problem with APUG is the more I browse the more I think I should get a medium format camera instead of my old Minolta.

Well, you're not alone there! Believe me... we all have to deal with our cases of "GAS" from time to time. (I've recently just added an agfa isolette to my kit.)

Honestly, we've not had a lot of discussions about labs... or at least, I've not read many. Even though I'm a moderator, I don't read everything here. I think as long as a lab is running film, and someone wants to know how they scan as part of a thread, that's fine. It's a judgement we can make based on the tone of a thread. As I said, I think the most active users here are involved in making their pictures from start to finish, and don't use labs as frequently or they scan and output digitally, but don't really discuss that end of the process.

 

[Bob-D659]

Henry, you might regret,. . . . . . . . I mean really enjoy shooting medium format.

 

[Ian Grant]

The thing is, a lot of those questions could be answered by a simple FAQ or some sticky threads. It's not like new scanners or scanning software are being released every year. A quick rundown of the pros and cons of a Nikon Coolscan, the Epson V700 and V600, and a couple others, along with some descriptions or even links to any of the tutorials on the web on how to use Vuescan, Silverfast, and Epson scan would go a long way to answering a lot of those questions. Heck, even just a list of links for information would be better than a vague "Go to DPUG". At least give them a landing point at DPUG where some vital, often asked and often answered questions are detailed in a clear manner.

I think those are very valid points and I know I've suggested something similar myself in the past. There's a need.

Ian

 

[CGW]

As I said, I think the most active users here are involved in making their pictures from start to finish, and don't use labs as frequently or they scan and output digitally, but don't really discuss that end of the process.

Time for some polls and/or research on this issue. No one appears to know much beyond what they think might be happening out here.

Something along the lines of Tim's suggestions would do much to make this site more useful and relevant.

 

[pbromaghin]

A decision to limit talk about digital might have made sense 4 years ago. Does it still?

Emphatically yes.

I am among those who use hybrid work flow. This is just about the only place where you can get analog talk without being drowned by all the digital noise. It's why I came here and stayed.

I can do without scantalk in order to get all the wonderful analog info.