buying new medium camera - need advice

[keithwms]

Tim, the 6x8 back will take 120 or 220. My 645 and 67 RB backs only take 120 film.

 

[Kim Catton]

People use anything and everything.

Let me suggest that you go over to Mamiya USA site and look in the "master's showcase"; you can see which lens people use for what shot:

http://www.mamiya.com/photography1.asp?id=4&id2=128

Another thing, if you look up the individual lenses on that site, you will find a 35mm equivalent, which is a helpful info if you are new to 6x7 format.

People do all kinds of things. 360 with an extension tube. Macro. SF. 100-200 zoom. Whatever.

"35mm equivalent" THAT was the word I was looking for. Thx alot. will check up on the site.

 

[timeUnit]

Kim,

It seems to me you gotten the advice to try almost every MF camera available. (It also seems you are a bit reluctant to do so, understandably.) The thing is, that you can to everyting with anything. Street photo with an 8x10. Landscapes with Half Frame. You name it.

So. Do this.

Buy a Bronica SQAi. One normal lens. One 150 mm lens. Or skip the normal and go for a wider one, like a 40 or 50 mm. Get a decent spot meter.

Don't buy a RZ. Or a Mamiya TLR. They are both wonderful tools, but quite specialised.

If you don't like the SQ, sell it at very little loss. Get the RZ or Hassy. I have the Hassy (503CX + 80 + 150) and I like it a lot. I'm sure I'd like the SQ as much. As Lance Armstrong would have said: It's not about the camera. ;-)

 

[keithwms]

I can't imagine that buying is necessary at this point unless there really are no decent camera shops nearby. At least where I live, it's no problem at all to borrow a camera system for a while and check it out. You should be able to find someone to loan you a bronnie or hassie or RB or RZ to peruse. Failing that, a good store will have someone who can walk you through a complete system. Or simply go visit someone who has a particular system of interest. Just about the only system I haven't yet been able to try out is the contax 645AF system; people don't seem to want to loan that out... I wonder why

I do agree that the camera and the lenses don't matter quite so much in MF, but on the other hand, many of us tried quite a few things before settling on one, so personal preference does seem to play an appreciable role. What rarely plays any role is lens MTF and all that, these are all pro-grade systems.

 

[Kim Catton]

I can't imagine that buying is necessary at this point unless there really are no decent camera shops nearby. At least where I live, it's no problem at all to borrow a camera system for a while and check it out. You should be able to find someone to loan you a bronnie or hassie or RB or RZ to peruse. Failing that, a good store will have someone who can walk you through a complete system. Or simply go visit someone who has a particular system of interest. Just about the only system I haven't yet been able to try out is the contax 645AF system; people don't seem to want to loan that out... I wonder why

I do agree that the camera and the lenses don't matter quite so much in MF, but on the other hand, many of us tried quite a few things before settling on one, so personal preference does seem to play an appreciable role. What rarely plays any role is lens MTF and all that, these are all pro-grade systems.

SO, just went out in my lunchbreak... I went into a specialised photo store and got a good walkthrough of the RZ67 pro II... got to hold and try out the mecanics of the one on display as well. I had a grip, 90 mm lens, 6x7 back and a prism finder. What a nice piece of equipment! The feel of this camera was really solid. The price for the package: 2800 US dollars. Used equipment. I think this can be done A LOT cheaper on the internet?

btw, what is "lens MTF" ?

Ive looked at the bronica systems as well and find them attractive.. its just.. ive heard so many good thinks about the mamiya lenses and the build quality of the housing etc.

 

[MP_Wayne]

SO, just went out in my lunchbreak... I went into a specialised photo store and got a good walkthrough of the RZ67 pro II... got to hold and try out the mecanics of the one on display as well. I had a grip, 90 mm lens, 6x7 back and a prism finder. What a nice piece of equipment! The feel of this camera was really solid. The price for the package: 2800 US dollars. Used equipment. I think this can be done A LOT cheaper on the internet?

Hi Kim,
A couple of years ago I jumped into a Mamiya RB-67 used camera/lens/film back package and I have not looked back! Yes, it is heavy and bulky, but so is my 4x5, and my Canon 35mm equipment with a long lens. With a grip, there is virtually nothing I won't attempt to shoot. If I had any single regret, it is that the 1/400 shutter speed maximum on the lenses is too slow for certain sporting events - something the camera was not really designed for anyway. Very small regret.

To your point about doing something cheaper on the internet, YES it can be done. From my humble beginnings 2 years ago with an RB67 Pro-S Body, lens, viewfinder and 2 film backs, I have a full LowePro backpack with 6 lenses, grip, etc. These days, you can get used, but well cared-for RB equipment for about 10 to 15 cents on the dollar of the former NEW price. RZ67 equipment is more expensive but still a good bargain against new.

Most of my purchases have been on eBay because that seems to project the best market prices. Yes, it could be argued that eBay is not fair to your local camera retailer, but some are the victims of their own process: "Mr. Customer, buy this high end digital system and we'll sell your old Mamiya equipment on consignment for a good price." That price is sometimes 8-10 times what the world marketplace supports and so the equipment sits in the retailer's store collecting dust until some under informed, trusting person comes along and pays far too much.

If you opt to go the eBay route, be patient and hold out for good quality pieces - especially in RB67. They come up all the time so there is no need to buy anything that has been trashed. Check out Shutterblade on eBay - they often run RB67 and RZ67 pieces in good condition (rated properly) and they ship for very reasonable rates.

Good luck!

 

[Kim Catton]

Hi Kim,
A couple of years ago I jumped into a Mamiya RB-67 used camera/lens/film back package and I have not looked back! Yes, it is heavy and bulky, but so is my 4x5, and my Canon 35mm equipment with a long lens. With a grip, there is virtually nothing I won't attempt to shoot. If I had any single regret, it is that the 1/400 shutter speed maximum on the lenses is too slow for certain sporting events - something the camera was not really designed for anyway. Very small regret.

To your point about doing something cheaper on the internet, YES it can be done. From my humble beginnings 2 years ago with an RB67 Pro-S Body, lens, viewfinder and 2 film backs, I have a full LowePro backpack with 6 lenses, grip, etc. These days, you can get used, but well cared-for RB equipment for about 10 to 15 cents on the dollar of the former NEW price. RZ67 equipment is more expensive but still a good bargain against new.

Most of my purchases have been on eBay because that seems to project the best market prices. Yes, it could be argued that eBay is not fair to your local camera retailer, but some are the victims of their own process: "Mr. Customer, buy this high end digital system and we'll sell your old Mamiya equipment on consignment for a good price." That price is sometimes 8-10 times what the world marketplace supports and so the equipment sits in the retailer's store collecting dust until some under informed, trusting person comes along and pays far too much.

If you opt to go the eBay route, be patient and hold out for good quality pieces - especially in RB67. They come up all the time so there is no need to buy anything that has been trashed. Check out Shutterblade on eBay - they often run RB67 and RZ67 pieces in good condition (rated properly) and they ship for very reasonable rates.

Good luck!

funny you should mention shutterblade.. the shop i stumbled upon on Ebay - already bookmarked there shop. Are you still using RB-17 or have you since purchased an rz? what lenses does your lowepro hold ? regarding the bulky-part...i like this. I like the heavy, solid feel of the camera, and to be honest.. I thought it was even heavier until I tried it (today)

 

[Kim Catton]

Kim,

It seems to me you gotten the advice to try almost every MF camera available. (It also seems you are a bit reluctant to do so, understandably.) The thing is, that you can to everyting with anything. Street photo with an 8x10. Landscapes with Half Frame. You name it.

So. Do this.

Buy a Bronica SQAi. One normal lens. One 150 mm lens. Or skip the normal and go for a wider one, like a 40 or 50 mm. Get a decent spot meter.

Don't buy a RZ. Or a Mamiya TLR. They are both wonderful tools, but quite specialised.

If you don't like the SQ, sell it at very little loss. Get the RZ or Hassy. I have the Hassy (503CX + 80 + 150) and I like it a lot. I'm sure I'd like the SQ as much. As Lance Armstrong would have said: It's not about the camera. ;-)

Well... Im a bit reluctant...or.. in love with the rz67. SQAI, is that one of the "latest" models? In what way are the mamiya's specialised?

 

[k_jupiter]

EBay - ShutterBlade has been a great source. Always keep the bookmark for KEH around though. Sometimes you will find the same piece of equipment there cheaper than what seems a good value price on EBay. And KEH is great.

Good portrait lens for an rb67? 150mm SF, a bit trick to use, works great for either soft focus or sharp. 180mm Great headshots, 127mm good for halfs and shoulder on up portraits. 50mm great for elongating that already point schnozz. You can handhold that one.

tim in san jose

 

[MP_Wayne]

funny you should mention shutterblade.. the shop i stumbled upon on Ebay - already bookmarked there shop. Are you still using RB-17 or have you since purchased an rz? what lenses does your lowepro hold ? regarding the bulky-part...i like this. I like the heavy, solid feel of the camera, and to be honest.. I thought it was even heavier until I tried it (today)

Send you a very long PM about my equipment configuration... hope it is helpful for your evaluation process...

Also, have a look at the www.mamiya.com website.... They have the full instruction manuals there for download, in PDF, so you can get an idea how things work on both the RB67 ProS and RZ67ii.

 

[max_ebb]

If you're considering an RB or RZ, I would recommend getting the newer KL lenses. In my experience, the older non-KL lenses aren't very high quality. Also, most all of the RB/RZ lenses (even the KL lenses) are substantially slower than Pentax or Bronica lenses, with one exception being the 110mm f2.8 lens.

 

[k_jupiter]

If you're considering an RB or RZ, I would recommend getting the newer KL lenses. In my experience, the older non-KL lenses aren't very high quality.

Care to ellucidate? Got some data? Or are you just blowing smoke?

tim in san jose

 

[epatsellis]

Max,
for the (rather significant) price differential, somebody just starting out could do quite well with C lenses, then upgrade as income/interest allow.

I have pretty much a full boat of lenses, minus the 37 and 140, the only two that aren't C are the 250 and 360, with judicious shading, they are more than adequate. I've been eyeing a 250C, but in reality, I'd rather get a 150 CF T* for the Hassy, as I would use it far more. I've tried a few KL lenses and returned every one, the shutters are non repairable, and "I" just don't see enough of a difference to justify the extremely higher price.


erie

 

[Nick Zentena]

Well no such things as a RZ KL lens so that makes the choice so much easier.

http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2022

http://www.tamron.com/bronica/prod/sq_lens.asp

Comparing speed of the RZ and SQ lenses it's seems a toss up to me. About 1/2 each way. So unless you mean the ETRSI lenses I'm not sure I understand the speed comment either.

The Pentax is a focal plane and isn't limited by shutter size. But I think both the Mamiya and the Bronicas use similar leaf shutters.

 

[max_ebb]

Care to ellucidate? Got some data? Or are you just blowing smoke?

tim in san jose

Just giving an opinion based on my own experience. Isn't that what everybody else posting opinions in this thread are doing? I notice you didn't accuse anybody else of "blowing smoke" for posting an opinion. Just because you don't like or agree with my opinion, I'm "blowing smoke"?

From what I've seen, Bronica and Pentax lenses produce sharper imagery (noticeable when printed large) than the older RB lenses.

 

[epatsellis]

Max,
can you qualify that? film/dev combo, etc. In my experience, they are all good, if sharpness is your primary quality metric, you may be right, I don't know for sure. I do know that with the films I use (Efke R100, TXP, E100G and Velvia) I run out of film sharpness long before lens sharpness. Then again I was a teenager in the '70s, could be residual exposure or flashbacks I guess....

Define older RB lenses nonC, C?


erie

 

[k_jupiter]

That is fair enough. But that is not what you said.

What you said was that "C" and non "C" lens were not high quality. That is not an accurate statement. They are extremely high quality, very reliable, extremely consitant. By any QA standard, these lens are as good as anything else on the planet. Your opinion, and that should have been stated, is that greater enlargements are not as sharp to your eyes as the not mentioned Broncia and Pentax lens. And of course, you didn't mention the MTBF of Broncia bodies is far lower than the MTBF of Mamiya 67 series bodies. In short, you were just slinging.

tim in san jose

 

[epatsellis]

max,
for example:
this was taken with the RB 180 C:

This with the RB 90C

these were taken with the Hassy 90mm CF T*:

Same film, Efke R100 and in all but the second image, both rolls were developed at the same time. there is a marked difference in the OOF areas, the RB is creamy smooth, the Planar is good, but not even in the same league. Both are acceptable to me, and honestly, had I not known about the RB lenses, would have been quite content with the results from the hassy. But fact is that the Mamiya lenses get that OOF smoothness right, every time without fail. In contrast (and only by side by side comparison) the Planar looks harsh.


erie

 

[timeUnit]

Kim,

You have gotten so much advice that there is no more to say. It's up to you now. Discussing Mamiya, Hassy or Bronica lens quality... They are equal in 99% of the situations you will encounter. And they're all great. Sharpness is an effect of so many things, I'd say you'd need some extensive testing to wring out a winner between a number of professional systems. It's not about the camera.

But, if you tried the RB/RZ, I definitely think you should buy one if you like it. You can produce stunning images with that camera. It's not a 6x6, though.

I recommend the Bronica because it's a professional, lightweight, high quality and affordable system. Hasselblad has a few advantages, for instance battery-less operation, but otherwise they are equal. If a well known master like Michael Birt uses a Bronnie, I think you and I will be alright with it too.

Good luck with the new camera!

 

[Kim Catton]

wow, love how this thread has evolved, hehe. I think I will look into the bronicas as well, keep an open mind about the systems and go with what I, in the end, feel most comfortable using. After all, the quality of lenses seem to be almost equal. If anybody stumble across a real good bargain please feel free to pm me, that is if you dont need the gear for yourselfs of course hehe.

Again. Thanks a lot to all of you

 

[Edwardv]

The Bronicas are a work horse. Very reliable. The major problem the lenses are not so fast. The results are outstanding. You could buy used Bronicas 645 ETRSi bodies, 120/220 Ei magazines and PE lenses at a reasonable cost at Keh. Dead Link Removed

Good luck.