buying new medium camera - need advice

keithwms · Aug 24, 2007

I don't really think you can compare them, they handle very differently. Maybe you could tell us more about your shooting style and what subjects interest you...

The best piece of advice I can give is to get these cameras in your hands for a weekend and try 'em out. You will see that they are quite different in every respect.

The 645 system features some faster lenses (there is a manual 80/1.9) and with the AF bodies you do get semi-decent AF, that may be an issue for you. If you are interested in long tele (sports, wildlife) then 645 would be a better choice, if you want to go wide then larger formats almost always win. Yes you can shoot 645 on a 67 camera but it's really not optimal in terms of lens performance aand that's a helluva lot of gear to transport for that purpose. I think I'd much rather shoot 67 with a 2x TC onto 67 film than crop into the neg or chrome by using a 645 back.

I like 6x7 systems because of the rotating back and, of course, the much larger negs and slides. Also, bellows focusing has its advantages, especially if you want to do macro. But indeed the 67 bodies are hefty.

My favourite mamiya is the mamiya 6 RF, but it is quite specialized. An rb or rz is an all-round workhorse. Same goes for the 645s, only they handle very differently from the rb and rz.

I shot 645 for a while and I like the 35mm-esque handling of it, but I love rotating back 6x7. And there is a 6x8 back for the rb, by the way. Technique being equal, my own feeling is a 6x7 chrome made with one of the better mamiya lenses can seriously rival 4x5" for any reasonable enlargement. (I leave it to you to decide the meaning of "reasonable")

Roger Hicks · Aug 24, 2007

Kim Catton said:
By the way... Ive been looking at the Mamiya 645 - What are these like compared to the rz67 series? Can the two be compared?

No. Twice the image area (nearly -- well, all right, 55-60 per cent more); vast differences in weight (I had an RB67 when my wife had a 645); the 645 is sort of 'super 35mm' while the RB/RZ are nearly as big as LF. It's not just the image quality: the way you use the two cameras will also affect the style of pictures you take, just as will the choice between a rangefinder camera and a reflex.

Nick Zentena · Aug 24, 2007

If you factor in the weight of lenses an RZ is heavier then many LF cameras. I bet my RZ with the biggest lens isn't much lighter then my 8x10 with a light weight lens. That's with the WL finder on the RZ. The prisms I guess would add even more weight.

Kim Catton · Aug 24, 2007

keithwms said:
I don't really think you can compare them, they handle very differently. Maybe you could tell us more about your shooting style and what subjects interest you...

The best piece of advice I can give is to get these cameras in your hands for a weekend and try 'em out. You will see that they are quite different in every respect.

The 645 system features some faster lenses (there is a manual 80/1.9) and with the AF bodies you do get semi-decent AF, that may be an issue for you. If you are interested in long tele (sports, wildlife) then 645 would be a better choice, if you want to go wide then larger formats almost always win. Yes you can shoot 645 on a 67 camera but it's really not optimal in terms of lens performance aand that's a helluva lot of gear to transport for that purpose. I think I'd much rather shoot 67 with a 2x TC onto 67 film than crop into the neg or chrome by using a 645 back.

I like 6x7 systems because of the rotating back and, of course, the much larger negs and slides. Also, bellows focusing has its advantages, especially if you want to do macro. But indeed the 67 bodies are hefty.

My favourite mamiya is the mamiya 6 RF, but it is quite specialized. An rb or rz is an all-round workhorse. Same goes for the 645s, only they handle very differently from the rb and rz.

I shot 645 for a while and I like the 35mm-esque handling of it, but I love rotating back 6x7. And there is a 6x8 back for the rb, by the way. Technique being equal, my own feeling is a 6x7 chrome made with one of the better mamiya lenses can seriously rival 4x5" for any reasonable enlargement. (I leave it to you to decide the meaning of "reasonable")

Ok, well... What I do most is "non-spontaneous" photography. I do a lot of portrait and a lot of night photography and nature as well.. I love to take the time and compose my photos. I do a lot of tripod and love long exposures. For concerts an spontanenous stuff I use my trusted nikon F80. I love 6x6 by the way. Hope this info can be useful in the quest to advice me

Best regards,

Kim

Nick Zentena · Aug 24, 2007

The RZ is great on a tripod. With the waistlevel finder and the rotating back it can't get much better.

You can always finder a bigger enlarger -) Or I guess you can compose for the middle 6x6 of the 6x7 frame and print it 6x6.

Kim Catton · Aug 24, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
The RZ is great on a tripod. With the waistlevel finder and the rotating back it can't get much better.

You can always finder a bigger enlarger -) Or I guess you can compose for the middle 6x6 of the 6x7 frame and print it 6x6.

Ah yes , i could compose for 6x6 - thats true... btw. Is 6x6 backs avaible for this camera? And what about the 6x4.5 - is this format worth the efford?

wow... Ones again im blown away by APUG and the friendly people who wander the forums. Reminds me, It seems my subscription has run out.. better go renew it.

kind regards

kim

Nick Zentena · Aug 24, 2007

6x4.5 backs are common. I think 6x6 were once available but haven't been for years. Or maybe it's the RB that had 6x6 backs? I forget.

jordanstarr · Aug 24, 2007

Kim Catton said:
I really have no problem with a seperate meter.. Up until now ive spotmetered with my nikon f80 when using my medium format camera(the one i have now), and yes... the format bug. hehe. I know what you mean. How is the bronica lenses compared to Mamiya?

Søren, thanks a lot.. will take a look at that magazine

i also had the mamiya 645. i sold it within 2 months for a bronica system. a liked the bronica a lot more. a LOT more.

keithwms · Aug 24, 2007

I kinda doubt there ever was a 6x6 back for the RB or RZ, the whole point of these cameras is that they have a rotating back. If it did exist then obviously it wasn't popular!

Kim, the only thing that would give me slight pause about the RB or RZ is that you said you like night photography; the lenses may be a bit dark for that purpose, but on the other hand there is a 110/2.8 for the RZ. Unfortunately there is nothing quite that fast for the RB, the fastest RB lenses are f/3.5. So for specialized MF night work or concerts I think you may eventually want a TLR or rangefinder or just stick with 35mm. But for everything else you describe, and since you mention that your style is a bit slower and more deliberative, either of these will delight you and fit your budget.

Other contenders that come to mind are the hassies and the pentax 67 system or perhaps the pentax 645N, and of course the bronicas and fujis.

Let's not get off into which lenses are better, if you want to see charts then look here:

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html

The mamiya RF lenses dust off just about anything in medium format, but obviously the RF is a specialized tool and not suited to macro or tight portraits or tele.

All of these systems have pros and cons, the best thing you can do is begin to tour them. It is a very enjyable process, going through all these systems one by one and checking them out. Another one you might look at, but which will probably be priced quite high, is the Fuji gx680. You can also find more exotic fixed-lens beauties at Dante Stella's site. There is whole lot of great and affordable MF gear out there, I'd say just enjoy sampling the menu and in a year or so you'll have something that fits your style like a glove. Like most people I went through a lot of gear before settling on what I have currently.

P.S. The main reason why I considered a 645 system is that I thought there might eventually be an affordable digital back for that size with resolution competitive with 6x7 film, but that hasn't yet happened. I don't believe that the ZD back has resolution appreciably better than a high-end Canon, and the ISO is far more limited.

coriana6jp · Aug 24, 2007

Actually there are 6x6 backs for both the RZ and RB cameras. I have a 6x6 back here for my RZ, but I dont use it very often. They are very very hard to come by and they tend to be expensive when they do show up.

Hope it helps.

Gary

Nick Zentena · Aug 24, 2007

The 6x6 back can't be replaced by the rotating back. If you need to deliver 6x6 images or if you want the extra shots per roll. I'm guessing the real reason for the 6x6 back is people needing to provide 6x6 images. Cheaper to buy a new back then a whole new 6x6 system.

keithwms · Aug 24, 2007

Thanks Nick and Gary, I've never seen one. Good to know. On the subject of odd backs, I have a 70mm bulk film vacuum back and nothing to do with it any more! Anybody have use for it?

Kim another nice thing about both of these (RB/RZ) systems is that you can very easily go to a polaroid back and you can even shoot to 4x5" film, there is a back for that. You don't expose the whole sheet, of course, so the main reason for doing that now would be to work on individual captures with type 55 or quick/readyloads. Anyway that would be a slightly pricey way to get bigger squares than 6x6cm on the RB, as I recall the actual dimensions of the largest square are something like 76x76mm. I guess the same things exists for the RZ.

Kim Catton · Aug 25, 2007

keithwms said:
I kinda doubt there ever was a 6x6 back for the RB or RZ, the whole point of these cameras is that they have a rotating back. If it did exist then obviously it wasn't popular!

Kim, the only thing that would give me slight pause about the RB or RZ is that you said you like night photography; the lenses may be a bit dark for that purpose, but on the other hand there is a 110/2.8 for the RZ. Unfortunately there is nothing quite that fast for the RB, the fastest RB lenses are f/3.5. So for specialized MF night work or concerts I think you may eventually want a TLR or rangefinder or just stick with 35mm. But for everything else you describe, and since you mention that your style is a bit slower and more deliberative, either of these will delight you and fit your budget.

Other contenders that come to mind are the hassies and the pentax 67 system or perhaps the pentax 645N, and of course the bronicas and fujis.

Let's not get off into which lenses are better, if you want to see charts then look here:

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html

The mamiya RF lenses dust off just about anything in medium format, but obviously the RF is a specialized tool and not suited to macro or tight portraits or tele.

All of these systems have pros and cons, the best thing you can do is begin to tour them. It is a very enjyable process, going through all these systems one by one and checking them out. Another one you might look at, but which will probably be priced quite high, is the Fuji gx680. You can also find more exotic fixed-lens beauties at Dante Stella's site. There is whole lot of great and affordable MF gear out there, I'd say just enjoy sampling the menu and in a year or so you'll have something that fits your style like a glove. Like most people I went through a lot of gear before settling on what I have currently.

P.S. The main reason why I considered a 645 system is that I thought there might eventually be an affordable digital back for that size with resolution competitive with 6x7 film, but that hasn't yet happened. I don't believe that the ZD back has resolution appreciably better than a high-end Canon, and the ISO is far more limited.

Thanks.. Dante Stella ? gotta check this one out. Never heard of it. I think ive got lots of stuff to learn about medium format.. for the purpose of portraits and the like are there certain lenses that I should look for.

Ive looked throug keh (what a nice place btw).. is there any places like it on the internet that ships worldwide? I tend to look through Ebay but mostly Buy Now stuff. Is it worth trying out the auctions when it comes to photographic gear? anybody done some good bargains on there?

Nick Zentena · Aug 25, 2007

I'm fairly sure KEH ships worldwide. They'll send you a shipping quote and then you can agree or cancel the order.

max_ebb · Aug 25, 2007

Kim Catton said:
I tend to look through Ebay but mostly Buy Now stuff. Is it worth trying out the auctions when it comes to photographic gear? anybody done some good bargains on there?

I have picked up some really great deals from ebay. For example, I just recently got a Pentax 67II with AE finder in excellent+ condition for $880 on ebay. On KEH, the body alone without a finder in excellent condition is $1000, and the AE finder is about $450. I find that some things will typically go for less on ebay than you can get them from KEH, but some other things commonly go for more on ebay than KEH. The best way to get an idea of what something will go for on ebay is to look at already completed auctions on what ever you're looking at, and see what it sold for in the past (you have to have an account and log in to look at completed auctions).

If you're interested in a 6x7 outfit that has 6x6 backs readily available, a good one to consider is a Bronica GS-1 (polaroid backs are also readily available). There are a lot of good deals to be had on GS-1 gear.

dancqu · Aug 25, 2007

Two or three issues perhaps not touched upon:
One; square is always upright ready to shoot and
always balanced upon the tripod. Two; square is
always upright in the enlarger. Three; square
can be the lightest weight 6xX. The waist
level finder is a practical way to
compose and focus.

The only reason I'm shooting with a Bronica 6x4.5 over
the 6x6 is lens selection. The 4.5 needs flipping for landscape.
I added the splendid Bronica rotary finder for great focusing
and composition. My AEIII finder sits unused; a pain in the
neck for other than eye level. Also a Beattie Intenscreen
is a real boost. Another Big boost, a Bogen Gear Head
410; precise composition and it's always locked. Dan

k_jupiter · Aug 25, 2007

coriana6jp said:
Actually there are 6x6 backs for both the RZ and RB cameras. I have a 6x6 back here for my RZ, but I dont use it very often. They are very very hard to come by and they tend to be expensive when they do show up.

Hope it helps.

Gary

I have heard of 6x6 mamiya backs, never seen one. There are 6x6 Singer/Graflex backs for the 2x3 Speed Graphic that will mount right on the back of the rb67.

tim in san jose

spb854 · Aug 25, 2007

6 x 4.5

MattKing said:
If 6x4.5 meets your criteria, I'd suggest a Mamiya 645 Pro or Pro Tl. With the right metering prism, it will meet all your criteria. The Mamiya 645 Super bodies are cheaper, but they are older, and not as robust (as a backup body they work well).

The older versions of the Mamiya 645 don't offer interchangeable backs, nor does the more recent 645E.

Matt

If you get an RB67, you can get the 6 x 4.5 back for it off eBay and have both formats.
The only reason I see for using this back is to increase the number of exposures you can get off a roll of 120 film (none will take 220).

The 6 x 4.5 is still in proportion to an 8 x 10 so very little cropping will need to be done whether with the 6 x 4.5 or the 6 x 7 formats.

Nick Zentena · Aug 26, 2007

dancqu said:
and composition. My AEIII finder sits unused; a pain in the
neck for other than eye level.

I love my AEIII on the bronica. Stick a grip on one side. A ttl flash on the others. In doors let the prism set overall exposure and the flash will make sure the foreground is exposed. No cave pictures. Outdoors if you need fill flash adjust the film speed on the flash module and use the prism to set main exposure. Quick and dirty fill flash.

Now I don't think it makes a lot of sense on a tripod for landscape use. A waist level finder and a handheld meter is much nicer for me in those situations.

dancqu · Aug 26, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
Now I don't think it makes a lot of sense on a tripod
for landscape use. A waist level finder and a handheld
meter is much nicer for me in those situations.

I've used the ET in landscape mode with the waist level.
I even tried the waist level in portrait mode using my gear
head. No more will I fiddle and fuss so much to compose a
vertical with the waist level; and near off the trail to do so.
With the rotary either mode no problem. Low level shooting,
no pain in the neck either mode.

An eye level AE prism spot finder is available for the square.
Likely an un-metered as well. I prefer off the camera metering
so with the 6x6 could get by with just the waist level. Lens
selection and higher speed lenses of the ET sold me over
the SQ. Not to mention the half price AEIII promotion.
All brand new from B&H. Later I added the 60mm
and a second back. Dan

Kim Catton · Aug 27, 2007

what kind of lens is best suited for portrait works - lenses for the Mamiya 67 and the like. And IF I decide to get the mamiya rz67 pro II what type of lenses is the sharpest?

Nick Zentena · Aug 27, 2007

What kind of portrait? Head shoulder? Groups?

You want a sharp portrait lens?

keithwms · Aug 27, 2007

People use anything and everything.

Let me suggest that you go over to Mamiya USA site and look in the "master's showcase"; you can see which lens people use for what shot:

http://www.mamiya.com/photography1.asp?id=4&id2=128

Another thing, if you look up the individual lenses on that site, you will find a 35mm equivalent, which is a helpful info if you are new to 6x7 format.

People do all kinds of things. 360 with an extension tube. Macro. SF. 100-200 zoom. Whatever.

keithwms · Aug 27, 2007

Hmm that gallery seems to be having some issues, I hope it is fixed soon. Anyway as I recall there were portrait examples from 65mm to quite long tele, and quite a few from the 110/2.8. But bear in mind that in 67 format, a slightly slower lens on a bellows-focusing camera can still give you shallow DOF and a great deal of subject isolation.

k_jupiter · Aug 27, 2007

spb854 said:
If you get an RB67, you can get the 6 x 4.5 back for it off eBay and have both formats.
The only reason I see for using this back is to increase the number of exposures you can get off a roll of 120 film (none will take 220).

The 6 x 4.5 is still in proportion to an 8 x 10 so very little cropping will need to be done whether with the 6 x 4.5 or the 6 x 7 formats.

None what will take 220 film? You need to get a 220 6x7 back for your rb. Last I heard, they took 220 film. I have not invested as I don't see a long term supply of 220 (especially in emulsions I use).

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mamiya-RB-ProS-...oryZ3352QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

tim in san jose

buying new medium camera - need advice

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