Buying Equipment from KEH

mark

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I know what he was saying, I guess I did not communicate it well. Damned internet. He was saying that customer service at some places makes you feel that way.
 

jmcd

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Overall I have had good experience with KEH over the years. Almost always, their cosmetic rating is conservative. But several items I have bought have definitely been in need of a CLA, or immediate replacement of mirror foam. I have concluded that is fine with me—as I have come to factor in a CLA, and feel that a fine camera deserves it.

In my experience, the salesman will not preview the equipment before sending it out. If there is a disagreement over cosmetic condition, the buyer gets a hassle free, prompt refund, despite the fact that their website warns of refunds taking up to two billing cycles. The price to inspect the equipment is postage two ways. If there is an undisclosed clear mechanical problem, they will take the item back and pay the postage.

But once I ordered an OM-1n in EX or EX+ condition from them. It was a beauty, but upon the first firing the mirror stuck to the foam cushion, which was gummy. KEH gladly took the camera back, did not offer to simply replace the foam, and I paid postage.

With tempered expectations in mind, I view KEH as a good value for the buyer. I have never been tempted by their offers to sell to them, however.
 

PhotoJim

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I've had two minor problems with KEH (a lens with a seized diaphragm and a Nikon F4 that ate batteries), but overall I am very happy with KEH. The prices are fair, shipping is fast, and the gear is always as expected or better. I got a 220 back for my Bronica SQ-AI recently that was EX+ rated; it was indistinguishable from new. (In fact it had a Bronica film spool in it.)
 

David H. Bebbington

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mark said:
I know what he was saying, I guess I did not communicate it well. Damned internet. He was saying that customer service at some places makes you feel that way.
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Yes, this summarizes quite well what I was saying. I fully recognize that if KEH manages to stay in business, it must be doing something right, and this is confirmed by the responses here, all from satisfied customers, albeit many of whom have had to return goods (benefiting from the compay's generous return policy). What I was also saying was that:
1) I personally would rather buy equipment which has been checked, even if it costs more
2) Given the fact that goods may need to be returned to KEH quite often, I feel it does not make economic sense for me in the UK to buy from this company.

I can see that it does make sense for others, primarily, it seems, people who live in the US and don't like e-bay. I'm the other way round on both counts! I would only observe that APUGers are routinely scathing about e-bay sellers who say "I don't know much about cameras but this one looks OK" and as far as I can see, KEH doesn't tell me much more than this either. For me, and I emphasize I speak only for myself, and am not criticizing others for what they do, my general preference is to buy on e-bay, making sure that I pay trade price (the price that a full-service dealer would buy in for). In the case of a typical Leica, for example, this might mean that I pay £200 - £225 for a camera that the dealer would sell for £450 to £500. I buy only cameras which are definitely described as working, without physical damage (dents, etc.) and with totally clean glass (I have learned the hard way that having scratched moldy lenses overhauled is not cost effective). Almost always, unless the camera is question is described as recently CLA'd, I send it to Newton Ellis in Liverpool for servicing.

This way, I end up paying mid-way between e-bay and retail prices for a camera which has been fully serviced and will be reliable for quite a while, and is in fact much better than the typical camera from a dealer's shelf. In the case of lenses, I only buy specimens described as totally clean - if they're not, they go back. I have upset quite a few sellers in my time by telling them to inspect their lenses with a torch ("How CAN anyone be so fussy?" they obviously think) and have done so without a qualm. My lifestyle and workload are such that I very much begrudge any time spent testing cameras, diagnosing faults and making returns, no matter how accommodating sellers may be.


Regards,

David
 

mark

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Sounds like you got a plan David.
 

jmcd

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I agree, here. I am one of the satisfied people who replied above, a satisfied customer who has returned many items, and paid postage on many of those items, along with some completely successful purchases. As is turns out, I am in the middle of a transaction with KEH. Earlier this week I ordered a Leica M2 from KEH, in EX condition. When I first tested out the camera, I felt it could be much smoother, so I called KEH, explained my concerns. After weighing the options, I exposed one test roll of film and sent out the camera for a CLA. I noticed on my test roll that some negative frames were touching.

Today I heard from my repair person that the camera is a rebuild, and that a shaft assembly will have to be replaced at a cost of an extra $200 on top of the CLA for the camera to operate smoothly and space frames evenly. He could tell this just by looking inside the camera and pushing on a part. I suspected something was wrong, but thought a CLA would fix it. I could continue to use it as is, but that is not why I bought a Leica, to use a camera that felt like it had grit in the winding mechanism. I don't know what will happen at this point.
 
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David H. Bebbington

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jmcd said:
... I felt it could be much smoother, so I called KEH, explained my concerns. After weighing the options, I exposed one test roll of film and sent out the camera for a CLA....
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If you don't mind my asking, what was KEH's response? "Send it back!"? Presumably the "EX" grading means "Obvious signs of wear", so strictly speaking KEH are covered. It would be interesting to hear if, for example, they are willing to sacrifice their profit in exchange for goodwill by making a contribution to the CLA - purely in financial terms, they would probably rather have the camera back and hope to sell it to someone less critical! In Britain, we have the "Sale of Goods Act"
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which makes it illegal for commercial companies (not private individuals) to sell goods "not of the quality asked for". On the other hand, of course, if the extra $200 of work turns the Leica into a superb camera. it might be a good investment! A tough call, to be sure!

Regards,

David
 

Nick Zentena

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In my expierence buying from Canada [so outside of the US] for small stuff they often don't even ask you to send it back.

From memory I've had:

1) Ordered a #1 board got a #0

2) ordered the lens shade didn't get the mounting

3) I know some thing else wasn't perfect but can't remember.

I was just told to keep everything. They mailed me a new correct board for no added money. Quickly credit my card for the cost of the shade.

OTOH alot of the time I'm only looking at the bargain stuff. The rule I learned long ago was stuff that looks too nice was never used. You need to ask why wasn't it used? Often it's because it's lived it's life in the repair shop.
 

David H. Bebbington

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Nick Zentena said:
OTOH alot of the time I'm only looking at the bargain stuff. The rule I learned long ago was stuff that looks too nice was never used. You need to ask why wasn't it used? Often it's because it's lived it's life in the repair shop.
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This may be on occasion, but an awful lot of Leicas are bought by amateurs who cherish them and use them very lightly. In the course of time, the cameras "retire" along with their owners - the owners can't get about to take pictures, so the camera goes in a display case, or lies in a drawer, eventually forming part of the owner's estate after his/her demise.

I had acute difficulty in stopping myself buying Leica R3s, I kept finding them in mint condition with lens for £150 - of course, they had been lying around and had gummed up, so needed a CLA. In the case of "jmcd" and the Leica, I would be surprised if the camera had been used hard enough to wear the wind mechanism out (if it had, the rest of the camera would surely look really beaten up), quite possibly a previous owner had hands like a gorilla and forced the wind lever hard against its stop, bending some gear teeth.

Regards,

David
 

jmcd

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Options: I could mail back the M2 to KEH for return. It would take up to several weeks for technicians to evaluate—if they agreed with the assessment, postage both ways would be refunded, along with the purchase price of the camera. No offer on their part to evaluate for need of a CLA at this point, but I am sure I could mail it back for them to evaluate. KEH holds up their end of the deal, but because the buyer is the one to actually use the camera, one can be looking at easily a month or two to come to an agreement about what work needs to be done if any to get things right.

The M2 I received looks quite nice but has been heavily used, to point of needing a new sprocket and other bits. During previous rebuilds it has received new bottom and top plate, and many new screws, which is why it looks so good, or EX, on the outside. It seems like a new sprocket and gears will get it into fine shape.
 

CBG

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David H. Bebbington said:
Presumably the "EX" grading means "Obvious signs of wear", so strictly speaking KEH are covered.
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Probably true, but for some other firm, but not KEH.

In my experience, and evidently an awful lot of others, KEH is virtually the only seller that rates items so conservatively. At KEH "Ex" means excellent condition, or even better. My own experience is that KEH's "excellent" is safer than a lot of retailer's "new".

I'd be pretty surprised if KEH doesn't make good on any issue. I don't care about which photo they use as long as they keep to their policy of conservative ratings.

C
 

aldevo

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I think the only real advantage to keh.com vs eBay is that they have an excellent track for honoring their return policy. Now that keh.com ships internationally, there is little to no price advantage vs. eBay if you are willing to be a patient buyer.

Yes, they are conservative about rating cameras - but those ratings are cosmetic and, primarily, only have to do with wear on the finish, superficial scratches, etc.

Do not expect keh.com to reliably check the mechanical condition of any camera they are selling for under several hundred dollars - it simply isn't worth the time or cost. The last two manual-focus 35mm cameras I bought from keh.com had mechanical problems that rendered the cameras useless and neither would have required any more than loading the camera with a junk roll of film and simply testing the film transport.

I have had problems with cameras bought on eBay but I have always managed to return them for refund.

Nowadays I do not give keh.com any special consideration in my purchases.
 
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jd callow

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aldevo said:
I think the only real advantage to keh.com vs eBay is that they have an excellent track for honoring their return policy.
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Other than having a far better and infinitely more consistent rating policy, immediate delivery, customer service, a long positive history, and an inventory that is far easier to browse I'd agree. Ebay and KEH: nearly identical.
 

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jd

you forgot to mention they pretty much invented the camera rating system, that is used by them and everyone else ..
 

David H. Bebbington

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While not wishing to criticise anyone for patronising any particular second-hand camera dealer, I would say that what KEH appears to have done is to practice on a large scale what smaller photo dealers have done for decades, namely take in second-hand cameras, wipe them over with a cloth, put them on the shelf without any detailed examination and sell them with a limited-period warranty. As I have said, this makes the customers the quality-control department. The difference relative to the small dealer is that KEH sell largely by mail order, so that the process of returning defective goods, which costs nothing if you buy from a dealer in your home town, ends up being quite costly. Presumably the business model is based on the fact (or assumption) that it is cheaper for the dealer to deal only with faults detected by customers than it is to check all cameras over before sale. The model does however include the possibility that some of the items on offer may be complete dogs (since grading covers only cosmetic appearance). I am sure "jmcd" is annoyed about his M2, I'm sure he'd be a whole lot more annoyed if the camera had worked acceptably until just after the warranty period expired and then turned out to need a total rebuild. KEH obviously try to forestall annoyed customers by being "generous" with their gradings, apparently enough of their customers are satisified with this.

There does seem, if our US friends will pardon me for saying it, a cultural difference between Europe and the USA, insofar as Americans seem to expect salespeople to lie and are prepared to accept that they as customers need to fight fire with fire. KEH and other businesses seem to offer a more "adventurous" way of buying things which I for one am absolutely not looking for. Misdescribing items, advertising goods with pictures of other goods without explanation, etc. are regarded as illegal in Europe, and perpetrators can expect to be fined heavily and even shut down. Incidentally, I REALLY don't think that KEH invented the standard grading system!

Regards,

David
 
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aldevo

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jd callow said:
Other than having a far better and infinitely more consistent rating policy, immediate delivery, customer service, a long positive history, and an inventory that is far easier to browse I'd agree. Ebay and KEH: nearly identical.
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KEH.com has a rating policy that considers *only* the cosmetic attributes of the camera. They do apply it consistently and that's fortunate - as they do not provide pictures of the actual item.

On eBay, I am generally offered several pictures of the item at various angles. I always ask seveal questions about the mechanical condition of the camera and if I do not receive any answers or I am not satisified with the answers - I do not bid. I have purchased cameras on eBay that did not function propertly but I have always been able to return them for refunds. Call that a combination of screening the sellers mixed with a dash of good fortune...

If you call KEH.com customer service and ask about a specific camera's mechanical condition you will only be told that unless the camera is sold "AS-IS" it can be expected to work and may be returned if it does not.

These days, I am mostly shopping M42 cameras and lenses that sell for less than $200. I feel that - with a bit of care - eBay services that market segment for me as well or better than KEH. If I were dropping, say, $3K on a Hasselblad system - I would probably view things differently.
 
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aldevo

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Have you actually dealt with KEH?

I've dealt with them extensively and they certainly have not behaved dishonestly to me. One simply should not expect that KEH.com - or any other 2nd hand seller - is going to conduct an extensive inspection of a camera that they are going to sell for, say, less than $150 USD. It's simply easier to have the customer return the camera if there is a problem. As there are not many sellers that even allow for that, KEH can expect that their customers will be forgiving in such circumstances.

As for their grading system - I have already noted that it largely considers cosmetic considerations, rather than operational ones - but I've always felt that KEH.com is *conservative* in grading their inventory (i.e. items are in at least as good a cosmetic condition as they are graded).
 

Uncle Bill

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I have not dealt with KEH personally, my brother shops with them and is a really happy camper. I have built a fair chunk of my camera kit via Ebay and never had any issues with the sellers I have done business. Now if KEH allowed transactions for Canadian customers with Paypal, I am on board in an instant.
 

mark

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David,

Hmmm...I'll leave the culturally ridiculous statement aside and say this. You don't like to be dealt with is a crappy manner. No one does. You have been treated poorly by some non-US companies "Amstrad, Ericsson and Leica UK come immediately to mind!" If it were me I would not do business with these people. I do not do business with Adorama.

We make a choice about who we deal with and we all, no matter what country we may be from, have our own standards. That being said, maybe you should never order from KEH because they do not meet your standards. Ragging about a company you have never dealt with makes about as much sense, to me, as dealing with a company that treats you poorly. I buy from KEH, when it suits my needs, because it is not adventurous. I know what I get will be as good as or most likely better than described. If I get a dud I will send it back. That is what warranties are for.

My father has a saying. "Dig deep enough and long enough and you are going to find out everyone is a biggot, or a bastard."
 
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jd callow

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aldevo said:
KEH.com has a rating policy that considers *only* the cosmetic attributes of the camera. They do apply it consistently and that's fortunate - as they do not provide pictures of the actual item.
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I keep reading your words and I still keep coming back to the fact that they do not reflect my experience. I always ask if the item is mechanically sound (especially if buying less than EX) and they always tell me yes. I would think that KEH would be in big trouble if they went on cosmetic alone. I would be very surprised if they didn't test the items first. Granted it may be that the $35, $50 and $75 items may not get inspected too closely, but the 300, 400, and 800 dollar item's I've bought all were mechanically and cosmetically as described.


I have purchased from ebay and I feel more comfortable buying without a picture from someone I 'know' than with 6 pictures from someone I have yet to meet. If I'm looking for a specific item and I have the time i shop ebay or even craigs list, but neither have the reputation or offer the recourse of KEH when buying used. Often I don't have the time and don't wish to tempt fate. I've also sold over a 100k worth of 'stuff' on ebay (for someone else not myself). It is a sellers market when done correctly.

I just bought a lens sight unseen from KEH, that looks as good or better than those that had been sold and are being auctioned on ebay for less. It would have been stupid to have bought from ebay -- assuming I won. I love and trust my fellow man as much or more than the next, but I am pretty sure everyone on ebay would have told me there lens is: Perfect , the glass is immaculate, it focuses smoothly, and there is only very minor wear on the barrel. I know if I get it from KEH 1) its cheaper 2) it will be as advertised and 3) if anything goes south it'll be replaced prior to my shoot.

The pressure to stretch the truth is great. Slice it as you will for my money KEH is a full step up from ebay.

aldevo said:
If you call KEH.com customer service and ask about a specific camera's mechanical condition you will only be told that unless the camera is sold "AS-IS" it can be expected to work and may be returned if it does not.
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I have had them get descriptions for me. I even had the guy pull the body he thought looked less used -- who knows he may have pulled the uglier one as I'm sure I'd become a PIA.

200.00 and no pressure i'd still see if KEH is competitive. KEH was not competitive I'd look at ebay or worse. For a 3k item, I'm renting, failing that I'm buying new, or used from someone I know or KEH
 
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David H. Bebbington

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aldevo said:
Have you actually dealt with KEH? ...
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As you might guess - the answer is "NO!" My expectations are: Private seller -> Caveat emptor, Corporate seller -> Goods which are checked, all working, fully and accurately described and guaranteed. I appreciate that KEH appeals to some people, not to me. I have permanently black-listed suppliers in the UK who have behaved like KEH. On the other hand, I have on occasion used, for example, Gray's of Westminster, whose business model is to sell only Nikon, work at the high end of the market, with premises in a high-rent district of London, and sell only near-mint equipment. Their prices are of course correspondingly high, but worth it. I am sure KEH can manage fine without me.
 
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jd callow

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And how have KEH behaved?
Other than not providing you with a photo on their website what is that they do that would warrant black listing? By your own admission you don't know how they do business -- You assume. You and a couple others say they don't test their equipment and leave it to the user to test it. I find this hard to believe. Have you asked them if they tested the equipment? I've gotten descriptions of the actual item and had it compared to others prior to purchase. Another has claimed to have received photos and all claim that they stand behind there product. KEH is a mail order house after all. In days gone by these folks would send out a thick pulp catalogue using 6pt type and blocked up line art. None would compare them to a high street merchant if only because the high street merchant has a store front and prices to match. I understand not wanting to have something shipped over seas only to have to ship it back if something goes wrong, but black listing based upon ignorance is a bit much.
 

David H. Bebbington

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jd callow said:
And how have KEH behaved? ... black listing based upon ignorance is a bit much.
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While not wishing to drag this subject out for very much longer ... I am sure that you, like me, pay attention to the experiences and opinions of fellow enthusiasts. Furthermore, my first-hand experience of the KEH website was very negative - cameras are offered with the same ill-defined grading for prices varying by $150 or more between $600 and $800, no pictures or detailed description, and all backed by a guarantee which may take 2 months to deliver. We are going to have to leave this subject soon, but I would simply ask you to accept that I have expectations based on European consumer-protection legislation, which is apparently far stricter than that in the US, and on my conviction that commercial businesses need to offer clear added value if they are to justify their existence.

If people are happy with KEH, then I am confident they will ignore me completely, but for me their concept is "We will buy equipment in from other dealers, do nothing to it, charge you upfront for any repair work [in the form of a profit margin] but not actually carry out any work unless you the customer find out for yourself that it is necessary, in which case we will 'generously' carry it out in a timeframe of a couple of months". Sorry, just can't see the benefit over e-bay. And, with that, goodnight!
 
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