Building an 8x10 Large Format Camera. Help and ideas are much appreciated.

[DiegoV]

Let me start by saying I've never done anything quite like this before. I have (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (and actually liked the results) but now I wanted to build a camera that I can actually carry around. I'm thinking somewhere around 8x10.

One thing to keep in mind, though, is I don't really have much of a budget for this. So the less money I spend, the better. And that's also kinda cool because I'll have to build most of the components myself -- which I think will be fun.

Like I stated before, I'm quite new to this and I'm open to all kinds of ideas and suggestions. I think I know most of the theory behind a project like this (I'm an avid photography student and I've built several camera obscuras before. I've been researching about optics also) but in practice I'm not quite sure where to start, so I'm going to divide this into topics.

Any help/ideas/suggestion is more than welcome and much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

• Problem #1: Focusing screen

This is something you don't need on a pinhole camera. And my room camera didn't need one either because I was inside of it.
What's the best way of building one? After a quick search, I found (there was a url link here which no longer exists), but I have never tried it myself. Any thoughts on this?

• Problem #2: Focusing system

On the room camera, we designed a simple but effective system with two boxes on top of one another. The outer box would move back and forth and that allowed us to focus where we wanted. However, this system isn't 100% light tight and I'm not sure it's a good idea, so I'm thinking of using bellows.

Basically, the longer they are, the closer I'll be able to focus at. And as long as I can get the lens' focal length to be the same as the distance from the lens' nodal point to the focusing screen, I'll be able to focus to infinity. Right?
How about materials? What kind of cloth is suitable for this?

• Problem #3: Shutter

Ideally, I'd like to have a mechanical leaf shutter with different speeds available. Am I better off just buying a shutter?
This seems like the most complicated thing to build, by far.

• Problem #4: Film holder

I think this one seems doable, but I need to do a little more research on how to build one exactly. If anyone has any thoughts about this, I'll be very thankful.

• Problem #5: Lens

I guess this is usually one of the things people don't build. But right now I don't have the money to invest on a real lens and I actually liked the results I got with the homemade lens we used on the Room Camera so I think I'll start with a similar design and in the future I can always replace it with a better lens.

• Problem #6: Body

All I need here is a place to hold the lens, another one to hold the, erm, film holder...and connect them both with the bellows, making sure everything is light tight. And a tripod socket. Right? Or am I missing something here?
I'm thinking of using wood but I'm probably gonna start by building a model out of cardboard or something and using the "box" focusing system...just to make sure everything works as it should.


As you can see, I'm still in the drawing board phase. But I'd like to have a solid idea of where I'm going with this before actually building anything.

Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Thank you very much, everyone.

 

[pdeeh]

I've made one with foamcore, have a look at my "lf box" thread ((there was a url link here which no longer exists)), also see if you can get a hold of alan green's book "primitive photography"
I've made ground glasses using Ian's instructions and they turned out beautifully - it's easy once you have the right material
you can make a shutter - google guillotine shutter. Or buy a leaf shutter or a packard shutter or a thornton-pickard shutter.

enjoy ...

you can make this project as complicated or as simple or as expensive or as bargain-basement as you wish!

 

[removedacct1]

Diego,
im thinking about attempting this as well. If you haven't already seen Joe Van Cleave's YouTube post about building an 8x10 camera, you should certainly start with that. Joe does a superb job of describing his efforts in this area:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-G3eI2kH8b8

good luck, and be sure to tell us how it goes!

Paul

 

[jacaquarie]

I am going to give you some "homework" for your project.
To begin in the old days to be the photographer, you did build your own camera. Look for older photography books, the process is already described.
The ground glass is exactly that, take two pieces of glass with abrasive between them and you will then have a spare for your next project.
As to shutter and lens, my suggestion is purchase.
I once thought I would build my own large format camera and by the time I worked up the cost of materials buying a 4x5 was less expensive than building.
APUG is a great resource and I know you will receive plenty of information for your project.

Good Luck
Arthur

Suggested reading

Simple Large Format Camera Construction by Edward A Hoover

Photographic Cameras and Accessories Hasluck's series of workbooks

Hasluck's Photographic Notes

Photography Studio and Field by E. M. Estabrooke

Build Your Own View camera by Bert West

 

[wildbill]

I'd use gatorboard for your model if you can find it. Looks like foam core but is rigid, cuts kind of like wood, and doesn't warp.
It probably won't help you but there's a series of photos on my site from my 8x10 build.

 

[DiegoV]

Thanks a lot for the feedback, everyone!

pdeeh: Your box camera is exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of building as a model. Maybe just adding a focusing system like the one paulbarden linked to (btw I hadn't watched the video before, but I really liked his design -- that homemade shutter was something!)

paulbarden: Amazing video, really. I subscribed to his channel because it really looks like he has some amazing stuff. Very informative.
And of course I'll be sharing my progress with you guys

jacaquarie: You make a very good point. I'm actually very interested in the History of Photography and I've been studying it for the past few years but I never looked into the construction of old cameras. My bad.
I will definitely try to find those books and give them a good read. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to find them at some library or as e-books online.

wildbill: I've never heard of gatorboard before -- maybe it's not a common thing here in Portugal -- but I'll look into it, thank you.
I really liked your design, it looks very professional in fact. It's a very good source of inspiration but at this point I wouldn't be able to build something like that. I'm just not as skilled as you are
One day, maybe I'll get there!

Again, thanks everyone for the amazing feedback. I'll do my reading and my research and I'll let you know as soon as I have something to show

 

[removedacct1]

Has anyone used one of the Dead Link Removed? Those look appealing, and affordable!

Welcome to APUG, Diego!

 

[bvy]

Did you see this?:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?110877-100-DYI-8x10-camera

 

[pdeeh]

I tried to track down gatorboard when that was suggested to me before. in the UK, its very hard to get hold of and very expensive when you can find it

 

[AlanC]

Diego, you may not need a shutter. With large format exposures typically around half a second or one second, you can just use a lens cap.
Having made quite a few large format cameras I would say by far the hardest thing to make on your list would be a film holder. If you can make an efficient film holder you should have no trouble building a camera. And it would be a good idea to build the film holder first, so you can design and build the camera around it.
Good luck with the project.

Alan

 

[DiegoV]

Did you see this?:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?110877-100-DYI-8x10-camera

Looking into it now. The camera looks great and the results on x-ray film are also amazing. Thanks for the link!

PS: I think I might get addicted to this at some point. I'll end up selling all my digital gear and just shoot LF

 

[DiegoV]

Diego, you may not need a shutter. With large format exposures typically around half a second or one second, you can just use a lens cap.
Having made quite a few large format cameras I would say by far the hardest thing to make on your list would be a film holder. If you can make an efficient film holder you should have no trouble building a camera. And it would be a good idea to build the film holder first, so you can design and build the camera around it.
Good luck with the project.

Alan

Hi Alan.
Thanks a lot for the info. I guess I'll start with the film holder first and go from there.

The reason why I wanted a shutter is because I shoot mostly portraiture. A shutter would be really helpful when trying to have shallow depth of field portraits outside.
If I wanted to shoot landscapes for the most part, I'd definitely skip the shutter.
However, like I said before, I'm probably going to start with a model made out of cardboard (or something similar)...and with no shutter

Thank you very much!

 

[wildbill]

I tried to track down gatorboard when that was suggested to me before. in the UK, its very hard to get hold of and very expensive when you can find it

FWIW, any legit photo finishing business will have tons of it on hand. Sign makers use it as well, at least here in the states.

 

[DiegoV]

FWIW, any legit photo finishing business will have tons of it on hand. Sign makers use it as well, at least here in the states.

Oh, I got it! I know what it is. People here just call it "K-Line", but I'm pretty sure it's the same thing.

 

[AlanC]

Diego, you could try making friends with a local amateur woodworker or cabinet maker. These people usually have boxes of offcuts of high quality wood -"too good to throw away" An ideal source of excellent camera making wood, which you will probably be able to get for nothing. Probably with plenty of free advice as well.

Alan

 

[DiegoV]

Thanks for the valuable advice, Alan.
I actually have some friends who know one or two woodworkers. I should probably try to get in touch with them.

 

[NedL]

You already got lots of good advice and I agree the film holder can be the main difficulty... so a good approach is to figure that out first and build everything else around it. As already mentioned, all of these can be as simple or complicated as you want, and there are all kinds of trade-offs you can make. I really like "1-shot" cameras that don't have any film holder and require a darkroom or changing bag to change film or paper... someday I might start a thread to talk only about the advantage of going out with 1-shot cameras-- I really do enjoy using them. I'll put in a few comments more along the "low end, build something simple that works but might be fussier to use" end of the spectrum:

• Problem #1: Focusing screen

Fixed or scale focus cameras do not require one, however a temporary focus screen is useful/necessary to calibrate the focus. I have a fixed focus camera that was not right until I temporarily cut a hole in the back and adjusted the focus more carefully with a piece of taped glass.

A simple piece of glass from a dollar store photo frame with scotch tape on it works well as a focus screen... think about which side of the glass to put the tape on so that it is in the same plane as the film/paper.​

• Problem #2: Focusing system

Again a fixed focus camera does not need one.... a sliding box may be the simplest to construct.
​
​

• Problem #3: Shutter

As someone already mentioned, you may be able to get away without one, especially with paper negatives which are slower. Another possibility, besides a guillotine shutter is to use a lens from an old camera... I'll mention the 3A RR lens below.​

​

• Problem #4: Film holder

A one shot camera might not need one... you can tape the film or paper to the back of a box. If your camera fits inside a changing bag, or the back can come off ( easier to build a darkslide into a camera body back than into homemade film holders ) then you may be able to change film or paper in a changing bag.... but it is fussy, I've done it a lot and you will end up juggling boxes of exposed and unexposed paper/film in your bag along with the camera.

I've been using single channel film holders like these. They are easy to build, and I have not had any problem with scratches, but I have had a problem with the darkslide catching on the lower edge of the window when I replace it after a shot.... the darkslide material needs to be completely stiff and flat so that this cannot happen. I have not solved this problem yet, but I'm sure it can be solved.

The main thing about a simple film/paper holder is to think about what is defining the distance from the lens to the surface of the film/paper, and make sure you can put the surface of the focus screen in exactly the same place... for me that means the distance must be defined by the materials I'm using not by something I cut ( I don't own micrometers and don't know how to make precision cuts on anything... so I rely on the thickness of MDF or foamcore to be constant )

My fixed focus camera uses a holder that I really like. My wife bought me about a dozen glass picture frames from the dollar store ( they really were $1 each... the thing that makes them useful is that they are all identical. ) I cut several window mats, and scribed lines in the back for different sizes of paper. To use the holder, I tape the paper to the back of the window mat and then put it into the frame, with the cardboard backing holding everything nicely in place and flat. The glass is not used but is useful for other things. Then the camera has a slot designed to hold the picture frame in place, and there is a little "slot/door" in the camera that opens up and allows the frame to slide in and out. This has been very convenient and easy to use, but it is a 1-shot camera and the frames must be changed in a darkroom.
​

• Problem #5: Lens

I like your idea of starting with simple lenses/ magnifying glass/ etc....

If you buy an old Kodak 3A with a Bausch and Lomb rapid rectilinear lens, it will cover 8x10 ( or 8.5 x 11 ) nicely with the front element removed. If the lens is stopped down it is pretty darned sharp all over. I got a disaster of a 3A camera for $15 on the goodwill auction site.. the camera was a total loss but the lens and shutter were still fine. I would urge you not to destroy a functional 3A since they are pretty fun to use and I hate to think of them slowly but surely disappearing..... You can tell which ones have the B&L RR lens because it has a front lens with a solid black ring around the it... often you can tell from the photo on the auction site if it is the RR. Kodak 3A's were sold with at least three different lenses. This also solves the shutter problem..

I have another simple camera with an "expensive" lens.... that was essentially the entire cost of the camera. LF lenses come up for sale pretty often here at APUG... maybe build a few cameras and then get hooked and I'm sure you'll want to buy one. That one has no shutter and I don't need one to use it. Careful with the hat trick that you don't use a baseball hat with the little vent holes in it... it will leave interesting little streaks on your photo ( I know this for a fact. )

​

• Problem #6: Body

Mine are all made from foamcore. My wife is a teacher and an endless stream of foamcore comes from various projects her students have done over the years.... so I get the leftover scraps. It has problems but it is easy and you don't feel bad about ripping something apart to re-design or repair it. Someday I will build more sturdy cameras but the two big foamcore cameras I built so far both have lasted over a year and neither camera took more than a few hours to build... so a good trade in time an effort I think. And very fun!!!!

​

 

[John Koehrer]

The problem with a film holder is the "T" distance This is the distance from the front of the frame to the ground glass or film. If you make one it may not be usable on another camera.
Oh yeah! The same dimension is needed on the ground glass.

 

[LJH]

Here's something that might give you a bit of direction:

http://www.largeformatphotography.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=547

 

[pdeeh]

If you buy an old Kodak 3A with a Bausch and Lomb rapid rectilinear lens, it will cover 8x10 ( or 8.5 x 11 ) nicely with the front element removed

Ned, is that the 3A Autographic or 3A Folding Brownie? (I'm guessing the latter?)

 

[wilper]

I built a €25 camera last summer. It was made for 5x7, but the design can trivially be scaled up to 8x10 or larger.

https://photofying.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/building-a-e25-large-format-camera

It is very primitive compared to what you had in mind, but I thought I'd share anyway.

Focusing screen. None, just scale focusing.

Focusing system. Inside the camera body there are separators at different distances from the lens. Place the "film holder" in the right position to focus. During the assembly of the camera you can easily project an image of the outside world onto a white piece of paper in your film holder, and that way determine what focusing distance that the different positions correspond to.

Shutter. The first version of the camera just had a sliding tab, and a small aperture to keep exposures by hand manageable. I later upgraded the camera by taking the shutter and aperture assembly from an old folding 120 camera.

Film holder. Just a sheet of cardboard with clips on. It is never exposed to lights due to the sleeves on the top of the camera. Film is stored in a light proof bag inside the camera, and the sheets are cycled into place by hand one at a time.

Lens. I bought an achromat of suitable focal length from Surplus Shed. You could use a magnifying glass as well, if you had one available.

Body. Lidless wooden box, top covered by a light proof film changing bag.

 

[NedL]

Ned, is that the 3A Autographic or 3A Folding Brownie? (I'm guessing the latter?)

Both, I think.

Mine says "Use Autographic Film A-122" and has the hinged "door" ( stylus was missing, of course! ) I think there were also models "No. 3A Folding Pocket Kodak" with the B&L RR lens but not autographic. The RR has two "doublet" lenses, one that screws onto the front and one that screws on to the rear of the shutter from inside the camera. Each lens is mounted in a black ring. When I use mine, I unscrew and remove the front lens. Focal length when removed is almost double the original FL, around 11 inches. When I'm not using it, I leave the front lens in place, covered, to help keep dust out of the shutter and also so that I don't lose it I think it IS possible to remove the entire shutter assembly from a 3A without damaging the original camera, but I'm not 100% sure... on mine the bellows had completely disintegrated. The shutter assembly has a retaining ring nut, so it is easy to mount.

I doubt there is any advantage to a simple achromat like wilper used, except that you get a shutter and the price is similar.

 

[NedL]

I built a €25 camera last summer. It was made for 5x7, but the design can trivially be scaled up to 8x10 or larger....

I really like the incorporated changing bag, and the "scale focus" by changing the film position!

 

[pdeeh]

Last year I came into possession of a lovely Wray barrel lens from the 1890s, seems to be a 5.5" RR for 5x4.
( (there was a url link here which no longer exists))
I recently tried it in my 8x10 with the rear cell removed and the coverage seems fine. Whether the edges and whatnot would be good enough for a LF stickler is another matter of course
Mine cost me nothing, but Still, similar lenses do seem to be buyable for quite small sums and have to worth experimenting with I'd have thought

 

[John Koehrer]

I can't help it, just can't!

So the bag/sleeves shows you're "thinking outside the box?"

I love it.