Building a 135 film format panoramic camera from old camera parts.

[Wolfram Malukker]

This will probably take a bit, don't get too excited.

I picked up another Sears TLS and a Sears 2000ES this weekend, both work but the 2000ES has some electronic stuff not working properly. It sounds like the electronics are not getting power, or some bad capacitors. The TLS works, but it's filthy and needs some light seals. This is in addition to the TLS that I've been using and have already done most of the light seals in, but that the light meter is temperamental. The idea was take apart the new-to-me TLS and clean, light seal, and reassemble-if it works, great!

In the middle of this, I had an idea that apparently lots of others have had. I want to build a double-wide or even triple-wide 35mm panoramic camera. I'm a machinist, so making parts is day work. The plan is to use a film handling system copied from the TLS but machined with a wider window.

Next up, the shutter. Can I use a standard Copal Square mechanical shutter reclaimed from another junk camera, and simply move it forward away from the film surface to widen up the exposed area?

After that, I need to figure out a lens system to use. I think I want to use something wide, like a 28mm or 35mm lens but I need either a longer film-to-lens distance for focus, right? Can't just machine another M42 threaded mount and shift it forward, without adding some other lens element, or is there anything I could do (or better yet, an existing lens system!) that I could set up around?

The target is to end up with a camera that exposes at least a 24mm x 72mm frame. Even better would be a 24mm x 90mm frame!

I kinda think the easiest way to do it might be find two cheap-because-the-shutter-is-broken cameras, and make some strategic bandsaw cuts and mill the edges nice and square, and braze them back together.

But then, there is a lot of film wasted unless some method to pull the leader across into the wind-up mechanism is figured out. Or I'd have to just load it in a changing bag or something.

Those who have done this, could you share some information on how you did it?

 

[grain elevator]

CHeck this website out: https://zeissikonveb.de/start/basteleien/panorama-kameras/praktica-panorama.html
He's modifying horizontally traveling shutters.

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

That's really similar to the idea I first had, cutting two camera bodies and combining them. I'll really have to look hard at that method!

 

[OAPOli]

I've built a few 35mm panoramic cameras. My approach was to enlarge the film gate of a suitable camera, then put a leaf-shuttered medium-format lens with helicoid on the modded body. Then advance twice for a 72mm frame, etc...

I think using a offset "focal plane" shutter would bring some complications since you'd have to find a new way to control the cocking and speed selection.

Keep in mind that the larger the pano, the larger the format lens is required. 24x72mm is 6x6, 24x90mm is 6x7, etc. I think the widest lenses for those formats is 35mm. There are also shift lenses for 135 format (used by the modder shown above) which can be wider. But most (reflex) MF lenses have a long flange focus distance, which makes for an ugly camera IMO. The lenses I've ended up keeping were of symmetrical type like the 47mm Super Angulon and the Fuji 45mm f5.6 from the GS645W. I've also used the Mamiya 55 f/4.5 (TLR), Bronica 50mm f/2.8 and Bronica 40mm f/4.

 

[ic-racer]

It is not too difficult to load 35mm film in a 6x9 cm camera. 65mm lens will give you about the “28mm” angle of view you requested.

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

Some objective parts are on the way. I acquired some Mamiya TLR lens assemblies, supposedly with functional shutters and taking lenses.

One of them is a 65mm/F3.5 lens, but the viewing lens has some damage and may not be perfectly recoverable. The taking lens looks OK, though, and is claimed to work fine.

The other is a very nice looking 55mm F/4.5 lens, but it has a small piece of plastic broken off on the taking lens. This part is present on the other lens so I can model and print a new piece, probably. Guy says it still works but you have to hold the ring still.

Neither lens has a method of focusing, so I will have to come up with a helicoid that can be attached, hopefully said helicoid can be mounted to some kind of lens mount so I can fit either lens. TLR lens sets with damaged viewing lenses aren't too uncommon and ones that are in rougher shape are not all that unreasonable for my liking.

Now, if my reading has done me any good at all, this means that the 65mm lens will give approximately a 27.5mm angle of view, as Ic-Racer notes above, and the 55mm lens should give a roughly 23.5mm angle of view. I only need to get one of these lenses working, so if I can make the new part needed I'll just keep the 65mm, since the viewing lens is pretty battered, and I'll sell off the 55mm.

Now, as to the frame size, both of these lenses are intended for a 60mm square frame, right? So that means 60mm * 1.414 should be the minimum clear image circle, that's 84.84mm diameter.

Cutting that down to a 24mm tall frame, I could figure out the maximum width of the frame by figuring the sagitta height, doubling it, then subtracting that from 84.84mm. Sagitta height S = R +/- Sqrt(R^2 - (0.5 * Ch)^2), which workes out to 1.73mm. R being the radius of the circle and Ch being the chord length, of course. 84.84 - 1.73 -1.73 = 81.38mm, which is the maximum film gate to fit inside the minimum image circle.

In this case, I could get a 24mm X 81mm frame, and still be completely inside the original image circle. A standard 135 frame being 24mm x 36mm, plus 2mm gap, so my new film gate should be 24mm x 74mm total.

Now, to make sure that the film indexes, I need to count sprocket holes-each frame needs 8 sprocket holes, so I need to now move 16 sprocket holes for each exposure. This means I need to set up a lockout, so that after 16 sprocket holes have been advanced that the lever will lock out moving the film.

There are still more problems to solve, but not until I start to flesh out more of the film transport design.

 

[grain elevator]

I wouldn't discount the 55mm lens yet. 65 mm might be a bit restrictive in terms of vertical aov. I don't think it's a coincidence that most panoramic cameras have wider lenses.

 

[ic-racer]

Unless someone has already tried it, the Mamiya 65mm lens will probably not cover two 35mm frames across. To cover two frames across, one would need a 6x9cm format lens, or a shift/tilt lens from a 6x6cm camrea.
Again a 6x9cm camera will have the proper lens, focus mechanism and film transport mechanism already. All you need to do is load the 6x9 camera with 35mm film.

 

[OAPOli]

Unless someone has already tried it, the Mamiya 65mm lens will probably not cover two 35mm frames across. To cover two frames across, one would need a 6x9cm format lens, or a shift/tilt lens from a 6x6cm camrea.
Again a 6x9cm camera will have the proper lens, focus mechanism and film transport mechanism already. All you need to do is load the 6x9 camera with 35mm film.

A 6x6 lens has a ~80mm diameter image circle. A 24x76mm frame fits in that same circle.

 

[ic-racer]

A 6x6 lens has a ~80mm diameter image circle. A 24x76mm frame fits in that same circle.

You are right that should work!

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

I was about to say-I just did the math in the post above. Technically an image of 24 x 81mm is possible, but that's cutting it a bit close.

If the Mamiya lenses do not show corner darkening on a 60mm square, they should not show corner darkening on a 24mm x 81mm frame either-both quadrilaterals would have vertexes on the perimeter of the same circle. That should leave plenty of extra space on the ends of the 24mm x 74mm frame, and hopefully won't have too much "edge of the lens" distortion.

I'm sketching up the film transport now, I'll 3d print the film transport to check dimensions before I set up any aluminum in the mill.

 

[blee1996]

I second @ic-racer suggestion to use a compact 6x9 camera body and use 135->120 adapter kit for film transport. Most 6x9 folders use red window to advance film, which won't work for 135 film. However a 6x9 roll film back will work perfectly here, especially if you use standard mount like Mamiya Super/Universal or Graflex. Then you only need to figure out a custom lens cone for your particular lens. And you will have a modular and flexible standard-based system for future experiments.

The final instrument won't be too much bigger than a X-Pan, and you don't need to hacksaw two 35mm cameras together.

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

Sure, but that's a several-hundred-dollar camera, plus lenses and film backs, plus less available film, plus getting said film developed, vs 80$ in old, mostly broken camera equipment and the most commonly available and accessible film format still out there, and a few days in the workshop.

I'm coming up on having 19 days where I have to show up to work in the machine shop, but there is no work to be done-my classes are over and my responsibilities for summer training haven't started yet. This will help fill the time a bit, plus I'm having to learn a new CAD/CAM system anyway.

 

[reddesert]

I've looked into this and also made some progress on a project to make a panoramic film gate out of a single 35mm SLR body (requires removing the shutter) - I need to add some light baffles and then try it out. Some thoughts:

-- the size of a "6x6" frame is about 55-56mm square, a Mamiya TLR or other 6x6 lens has about a 79mm image circle. You are correct that this should still cover 24x72mm. (Personally I find the 3:1 aspect ratio about the widest that can be managed for pictorial purposes on a rectilinear panoramic camera and even 2.5:1 would be fine for many uses.)

- There's no need to machine a focus helical to mount a Mamiya TLR lens or similar, because you can buy focus helicals for say 42mm or 58mm mount inexpensively (check ebay). You can machine the parts that allow the helical to mount to camera and lens if needed; that's much less work.

- Using a leaf shutter lens is vastly simpler than trying to adapt or brew your own large focal plane shutter. If you try to adapt a 35mm size focal plane shutter just behind the lens, it would be cool if it worked, but will probably lead to vignetting.

-- Some paths to a 35mm panoramic roughly in order from least to most work:

- use 35mm film with adapters in a 6x7 or 6x9 camera with a wide lens, requires a suitable camera. You could machine a mask insert for the 35mm frame to improve light baffling and film flatness.

- use 35mm with adapters in a 6x7 or 6x9 220-film back (like a Mamiya Press or RB67 back), and make a camera body (a big lens cone, basically) that goes between the back and your lens + focus helical. This is the approach of the Mercury, Goodman Zone, or Cameradactyl 3D-printed plastic body cameras. May result in a camera much smaller than the original Mamiya Press-type camera. This is something where you could use machining skills to make the body. Correct lens-film alignment is important. Film backs are not expensive.

- Modify a single 35mm SLR body by gutting it to remove the shutter and reflex mirror, and enlarge the film gate cutout to give you something like a 24x60mm opening. Figure out a way of mounting a leaf shutter lens to the front. You retain the film transport mechanism. This is what OAPOli suggested. Also what the person who made the "Mamiya Press Pan" did, although he 3D-printed an entire new front for the camera body, which (IMO) led to some of the problems that the one Photrio user who tried it reported. A nominal advantage of this is that the resulting camera is likely a lot smaller than starting with a 6x7 - 6x9 camera or back.

This is what I'm doing but because I don't have a machine shop and am lazy, I am retaining the original front of the camera and lens mount and will use that lens mount to mount the panoramic lens. That should mitigate problems with lens-film parallelism. If you start with an older-generation 1960-early 70s SLR like most M42 mount SLRs (Spotmatic, Mamiya 500TL, Sears rebadged, Nikkormat, etc), you can probably enlarge the film gate to 60mm or more, surprisingly. One will need to wind the film 2 strokes for every exposure and give up double exposure prevention.

- Get a 35mm stereo camera, like a Kodak Stereo or Stereo Realist, keep the film transport, mill out the entire center structure, and mount a panoramic lens to it. I'm not sure if this is worth it, at that point maybe the pieces you're keeping would be more easily 3D printed.

- Most complex - take two identical SLRs and cut and graft them together, as you originally proposed. I think keeping the structural integrity of all the parts and getting them aligned would be pretty complex.

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

Modifying a 35mm stereo camera would likely be the least amount of work to get where I want to go-but I don't have one of those.

I considered cutting and grafting junk SLR's together because I already do something very similar with engine blocks-but it will be easier and much faster to just mill a new body and film transport out of a block of aluminum. Bonus points if the design works the way I'd like it to work, I can just make a batch of 10 or 20 or 50 if I feel like it.

I hadn't even looked at buying a focus helicoid, I was just going to rob one out of a lens with junk glass. They are far less money than I expected, only a few dollars more than a junk lens.

Right now, I'm looking at a pseudo-SLR arrangement. The mirror is still behind the lens, but the shutter is built in to the TLR lens. In order to use a SLR-style mirror, the film gate has to be light-sealed while the mirror is in the "viewing" position, and some kind of interlock should be present to prevent lifting the mirror unless the shutter is closed. I plan to do this by making the mirror sit on a 45* angle block, that when in the down position, seals back against the film gate, and when in the up position, completely clears the film gate and seals the cavity between lens and film. This may not be the way that prototype #1 works, but it's a system I want to try out at some point.

 

[OAPOli]

A note about helicoids. I prefer reusing those from SLR lenses even though they are a bit trickier to adapt. The helicoid pitch (especially from a 28mm wide-angle) tends to be nice and slow which is convenient. The M42 or M65 helicoids you find online are much faster: a ~50mm lens on one of those will focus to 1m in less than a 1/8th of a turn.

 

[nosmok]

Modifying a 35mm stereo camera would likely be the least amount of work to get where I want to go-but I don't have one of those...

No it isn't-- I do have a 35mm stereo camera, and the project has been dead on the vine forever now. Mine seems to have a frame saving spacing thing happening: it shoots stereo pairs on (for example) 1 and 3, then 2 and 4, then 5 and 7, then 6 and 8... this isn't it exactly, but something like that is going on. Plus they use the space between the taking lenses in the camera for various mechanical and structural things that then have to be removed. I was not experienced as a camera modder when I started this, but it just quickly acquired so many daunting issues that I gave up. I think it was a Wirgin stereo 35mm camera that I was trying, an arbitrary choice. Maybe a different brand would have worked, I don't know. But I would say a medium format camera with a 35mm transport would probably be easier (I have made a successful MF panorama camera out of a 122 format Ansco 3A, giving roughly 6 x 14 cm negatives).

 

[reddesert]

No it isn't-- I do have a 35mm stereo camera, and the project has been dead on the vine forever now. Mine seems to have a frame saving spacing thing happening: it shoots stereo pairs on (for example) 1 and 3, then 2 and 4, then 5 and 7, then 6 and 8... this isn't it exactly, but something like that is going on. Plus they use the space between the taking lenses in the camera for various mechanical and structural things that then have to be removed. I was not experienced as a camera modder when I started this, but it just quickly acquired so many daunting issues that I gave up. I think it was a Wirgin stereo 35mm camera that I was trying, an arbitrary choice. Maybe a different brand would have worked, I don't know. But I would say a medium format camera with a 35mm transport would probably be easier (I have made a successful MF panorama camera out of a 122 format Ansco 3A, giving roughly 6 x 14 cm negatives).

The frame spacing you mention is typical for a "Realist format" aka 5-perf stereo camera. They take a 23mm wide image (x 24mm tall), and have a roughly 70mm spacing between lenses. So the blank space in between the stereo pairs is about 47mm, or two blank frames. Of course leaving all that film blank would be wasteful, so they have to (IIRC) wind by two 23mm frames to use all the film and keep the images from overlapping. So the right side is always on the odd frames and the left on the even, or something like that, but the pairs are interleaved (frame 1 pairs with 4, 3 with 6, etc). For use as a panoramic, one might want to mask the film gate down and wind two clicks (about 92mm) per frame. You are right that there's a lot of material in the middle that would be a real pain to remove, I wouldn't suggest such a project to anyone except someone like the OP who has plenty of access to a machine shop.

 

[OAPOli]

No it isn't-- I do have a 35mm stereo camera, and the project has been dead on the vine forever now. Mine seems to have a frame saving spacing thing happening: it shoots stereo pairs on (for example) 1 and 3, then 2 and 4, then 5 and 7, then 6 and 8... this isn't it exactly, but something like that is going on. Plus they use the space between the taking lenses in the camera for various mechanical and structural things that then have to be removed. I was not experienced as a camera modder when I started this, but it just quickly acquired so many daunting issues that I gave up. I think it was a Wirgin stereo 35mm camera that I was trying, an arbitrary choice. Maybe a different brand would have worked, I don't know. But I would say a medium format camera with a 35mm transport would probably be easier (I have made a successful MF panorama camera out of a 122 format Ansco 3A, giving roughly 6 x 14 cm negatives).

I modded a Wirgin stereo and yes it was tricky... lots of stuff to remove which was done by hand and crudely. But the panoramas are quite dramatic: ~4:1 aspect ratio. @reddesert is correct you need to wind twice to get the full pano. With a mask you could also wind once and make a 46x24 pano.

@nosmok if you still have the Wirgin parts I could use them. Some of mine a bit mangled during the modding.

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

Right now I've been drawing in my CAD software, I've basically been copying my Chinon CE-1 that doesn't work yet. the film transport is almost identical to my Ricohs, so I have a good collection of film transports to crib from.

On the lens front, I have two Mamiya C lenses, a 55mm that is perfectly mint and I feel bad taking it apart, and a 65mm that failed a rapid vertical deceleration test and the viewing lens housing is mangled. The glass is all fine, but the filter ring threads are cracked and broken from being bent so badly. I used the aperture grip from the 65mm to replace the missing one on the 55mm lens, to make it as close to perfect as I can get it.

That means the first lens I'll mount on this franken-ramic will be the 65mm Mamiya C. Unfortunately, the shutter was very stiff and sticky and did not work well, and initially didn't work at all. After some time running my fingers over it trying to figure out how the thing even went together, I found the shutter trip lever slightly bent and binding hard on the housing. A judacious tweak on the shutter trip lever and now the shutter works perfectly. Good thing, because I really didn't want to take it apart.

Now, the haze on the 65mm rear elements is pretty bad. I don't think any of these are cemented, though-they appear to all unscrew from each other. Is this common? I have read that they have haze issues and it's something to do with the lubricant used?

 

[nosmok]

@nosmok if you still have the Wirgin parts I could use them. Some of mine a bit mangled during the modding.

I'll take a look, I know where it isn't, which leaves one or two places it might be. But I sure wasn't doing it any favors when I was working on it, so mine might be even worse than yours.

 

[OAPOli]

I'll take a look, I know where it isn't, which leaves one or two places it might be. But I sure wasn't doing it any favors when I was working on it, so mine might be even worse than yours.

Thanks. I'm principally looking for the film gate plate. It comes off with six screws.

 

[reddesert]

Right now I've been drawing in my CAD software, I've basically been copying my Chinon CE-1 that doesn't work yet. the film transport is almost identical to my Ricohs, so I have a good collection of film transports to crib from.

On the lens front, I have two Mamiya C lenses, a 55mm that is perfectly mint and I feel bad taking it apart, and a 65mm that failed a rapid vertical deceleration test and the viewing lens housing is mangled. The glass is all fine, but the filter ring threads are cracked and broken from being bent so badly. I used the aperture grip from the 65mm to replace the missing one on the 55mm lens, to make it as close to perfect as I can get it.

That means the first lens I'll mount on this franken-ramic will be the 65mm Mamiya C. Unfortunately, the shutter was very stiff and sticky and did not work well, and initially didn't work at all. After some time running my fingers over it trying to figure out how the thing even went together, I found the shutter trip lever slightly bent and binding hard on the housing. A judacious tweak on the shutter trip lever and now the shutter works perfectly. Good thing, because I really didn't want to take it apart.

Now, the haze on the 65mm rear elements is pretty bad. I don't think any of these are cemented, though-they appear to all unscrew from each other. Is this common? I have read that they have haze issues and it's something to do with the lubricant used?

The Mamiya TLR lenses are fairly easy to remove shutter from the lensboard and lens cells from the shutter, and to put back together. You should just have to unscrew some retaining rings. Often there is a ring on front that goes over a brace between the viewing and taking lenses, and you need to remove that and the brace before you can turn the individual lens cells. Actually fixing shutter mechanics is more difficult, but some problems are external like you found.

There are a couple of threads on Photrio about Mamiya 65mm with haze in rear groups, search for them. Some of it may be on surfaces that you can reach by unscrewing, but there is also a surface that you can't easily reach that sometimes develops haze (not sure if it is an internal airspace or a cemented doublet).

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

These are cemented doublets, and most information I have found says heat them for a temporary fix. They're crimped into a metal housing, which is a pain to remove but removal isn't really needed to attempt the heating repair.

After heating for the prescribed period at the prescribed temperature, if it doesn't clear up I'll remove it from the housing, separate and clean, then re-cement. I've done doublets before, but never any this small.

 

[Wolfram Malukker]

Found a Ricoh TLS that had been dropped, and was missing a few parts, and got started.

I carefully removed all the bits I don't need anymore, and cataloged them in a small parts case, I have enough of these TLS based cameras that it would be irresponsible to throw them away. I am left with a functional film transport with an 8-hole stop, a film canister rewind mechanism, and the main casting will accept a 24x75mm absolute maximum film gate.

I'm going to start by trimming the film gate to 24x72mm, and checking to make sure the pressure plate still holds the film as flat as it originally did. I think the pressure plate may need to be widened to keep the film flat, as the pressure plate is only 66mm wide.

I also want to make sure I leave enough on each end of the film gate to eliminate sharp corners and edges, I do not want to create something that is scraping the emulsion off the film as I wind/rewind it!