Budget 6 x 9 cm folders?

hsandler · Apr 25, 2020

I have had several 6x9 folders. In general, I prefer the post-war ones with coated lenses and shutters that have flash sync. If you are willing to stop down and estimate focus or use an external rangefinder, you can save a lot of money by going with a camera that has a 3-element lens and no rangefinder. Here's my experience:

Kodak Tourist (with Anaston f6.3 lens). Good lens. shutter speeds limited; only the highest speed usable without a tripod. shutter release on the door feels flimsy and awkward. a bit large and bulky for a folder. Sold it because I got tired of having to respool. Example photos here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsandler/albums/72157661306891379

Franka Rolfix (with Radionar lens). Nice camera. Covering flaking off on the one I had. Wish I had not sold it. Examples here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsandler/albums/72157691682603795

Balda Juwella (Triolor lens). Beautiful, but lack of shutter release on the body made it very unergonomic. Lens flared badly. Very simple S&B shutter only worked at one speed.

Zeiss Nettar Bob (Nettar anastigmat lens). Nicely put together, but top shutter speed was the only one useable handheld. Lens vignetted badly making the useable frame much smaller than 6x9.

Agfa Isolette III (Solinar lens). Top of the line Agfa. Bellows full of pinholes (like most Agfas). Focus seized up with "green grease" (like most Agfas). I would stay away from Agfas unless you plan on a CLA. I broke the Solinar lens trying to free up the focus.

Braun Norca Super (Steinheil Cassar lens). Nice 50s folder with range of shutter speeds, M sync, top plate shutter release and coated lens. Nicely built and didn't need any restoration work. Example photos here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hsandler/albums/72157713030565261

wyofilm · Apr 25, 2020

hsandler said:
Agfa Isolette III (Solinar lens). Top of the line Agfa. Bellows full of pinholes (like most Agfas). Focus seized up with "green grease" (like most Agfas). I would stay away from Agfas unless you plan on a CLA. I broke the Solinar lens trying to free up the focus.

I have a Agfa Isolette II cla'd by Certo6. It is a fantastic camera (my first/only square format). In 2019, I shot most of my best photos with this camera in part because it performed well and in part because it is so damn handy. Breast pocket if I'm wearing a jacket, front pocket of khakis otherwise. Only slightly bulkier than a cell phone. WAG the focus and exposure - nothing to get in the way of taking a photo.

Kyle M. · Apr 26, 2020

Huss said:
I bought a perfect Zeiss Ikon Nettar 517/2 for $80. Used it to take this:

Used my Mockba 5 to take this:

I bought mine from Fedka.

Used my free Brownie

to take this:

Quick question on the kodak you used to take that last photo. I have two of those that were given to me and both appear to be in very usable condition. But I have been unable to find anyone who knows what the 1,2,3,4 aperture numbers roughtly correspond too. I don't even think the focal length is marked on the camera but I can check again. If you happen to have a rough estimate of the apertures I'd love to know.

BAC1967 · Apr 26, 2020

Kyle M. said:
Quick question on the kodak you used to take that last photo. I have two of those that were given to me and both appear to be in very usable condition. But I have been unable to find anyone who knows what the 1,2,3,4 aperture numbers roughtly correspond too. I don't even think the focal length is marked on the camera but I can check again. If you happen to have a rough estimate of the apertures I'd love to know.

Probably US aperture.

Donald Qualls · Apr 26, 2020

BAC1967 said:
Probably US aperture.

View attachment 244710

Seems pretty unlikely those are US 1 through US 4. The chart you posted suggests those would be very wide apertures, and that camera probably doesn't get any wider than f/8. They're probably something proprietary, for use with Kodak instructions that came with the camera (or are on an engraved plate on the back, on some of the Autographic series). With the lens behind the aperture like this one, you can calculate the f/ ratio easily enough -- measure the aperture diameter for each setting, and divide by the lens focal length (which is probably between 95 and 110 mm). Given the shutter offering only 25 and 50, my first guess would be that 1 is f/8 or so, 2 is f/11, 3 is f/16 and 4 is f/22. This gives comfortable settings under Sunny 16 for (old) ASA 12 to 25 speed film (common values for WWI era, equivalent to modern ISO 25 to 50) in direct mid-day sun, between 40th parallels, of aperture 2-4 for "sunny" conditions, and ability to go as low as "overcast" with the same film at aperture 1 and shutter 25.

Pan F or equivalent in full daylight, FP4+ or Acros if overcast, will let you stop down a bit (and film latitude will save you if you have the fast film loaded and the sun comes out).

takilmaboxer · Apr 26, 2020

I have four 6X9 folders. My favorite is the Zeiss Mess Ikonta with a Novar. I also love my Agfa, bought from Certo6 completely restored with a beautiful new blue bellows. It is light and quite slim in profile.
One thing to be aware of with these cameras is shutter shake. The rather large, spring loaded bodies can shake from the clacking of the shutter, making the images soften. Hold the camera firmly with both hands. I use mine hand held; if a tripod is needed, you may as well use a 4X5.

Kyle M. · Apr 26, 2020

BAC1967 said:
Probably US aperture.

View attachment 244710

Thanks I may mess around with one of them when it warms up and see what I can find.

Donald Qualls said:
Seems pretty unlikely those are US 1 through US 4. The chart you posted suggests those would be very wide apertures, and that camera probably doesn't get any wider than f/8. They're probably something proprietary, for use with Kodak instructions that came with the camera (or are on an engraved plate on the back, on some of the Autographic series). With the lens behind the aperture like this one, you can calculate the f/ ratio easily enough -- measure the aperture diameter for each setting, and divide by the lens focal length (which is probably between 95 and 110 mm). Given the shutter offering only 25 and 50, my first guess would be that 1 is f/8 or so, 2 is f/11, 3 is f/16 and 4 is f/22. This gives comfortable settings under Sunny 16 for (old) ASA 12 to 25 speed film (common values for WWI era, equivalent to modern ISO 25 to 50) in direct mid-day sun, between 40th parallels, of aperture 2-4 for "sunny" conditions, and ability to go as low as "overcast" with the same film at aperture 1 and shutter 25.

Pan F or equivalent in full daylight, FP4+ or Acros if overcast, will let you stop down a bit (and film latitude will save you if you have the fast film loaded and the sun comes out).

Thank you as well. I do have some Pan F in 120, I also have the ability to measure the aperture I just never thought about that. I'll see if i can nail down the focal length. I just remembered I have a late 80's or early 90's guide to collecting Kodak cameras. Obviously the prices are way off but I may find some useful information in there.

Huss · Apr 26, 2020

The apertures are what Donald said.

Kyle M. · Apr 28, 2020

Huss said:
The apertures are what Donald said.

Thank You.

Helge · Apr 29, 2020

takilmaboxer said:
I have four 6X9 folders. My favorite is the Zeiss Mess Ikonta with a Novar. I also love my Agfa, bought from Certo6 completely restored with a beautiful new blue bellows. It is light and quite slim in profile.
One thing to be aware of with these cameras is shutter shake. The rather large, spring loaded bodies can shake from the clacking of the shutter, making the images soften. Hold the camera firmly with both hands. I use mine hand held; if a tripod is needed, you may as well use a 4X5.

That’s some strange reasoning. So you never put other cameras than LF ones on a tripod?
A MF folder plus tripod is still a hell of a lot smaller than a 4x5 with suitable tripod and holders.
And there is a world of difference between using a folder handheld and fixed. Remember, many folders kind of have a build in tripod.

Donald Qualls · Apr 29, 2020

Helge said:
A MF folder plus tripod is still a hell of a lot smaller than a 4x5 with suitable tripod and holders.
And there is a world of difference between using a folder handheld and fixed. Remember, many folders kind of have a build in tripod.

I've got two 6x9 folders, either one plus a tripod that will hold them steady weighs less than my Speed Graphic or Graphic View, and never mind the much heavier tripod they require. Of course, there are lighter 4x5 cameras, and there are lighter tripods for those cameras (if you have the money), but someone looking for a budget 6x9 folder probably won't have a carbon fiber camera and carbon fiber tripod. I certainly don't.

pbromaghin · Apr 30, 2020

I have an old aluminum Velbon consumer-grade tripod that is perfectly adequate for any Medium format folder. Indeed, I have used it for 645 and 6x6 folders for years and I am awaiting delivery of my first 6x9. I don't understand what you are saying.

P C Headland · Apr 30, 2020

nosmok said:
If you'd rather not re-roll your film to a 620 spool, and find anything with the Zeiss name priced higher just for that reason, and don't want to take a chance on a Russian camera, I would suggest the Franka Rolfix, with the wonderful Rodenstock Trinar 105 f/3.5 lens. It's scale focus only, but usually comes with the Compur Rapid shutter with speeds up to 1/500 sec, and takes amazing pictures. It's well built and pretty compact for a 6x9cm camera. Love mine.

I've got one, and agree. It's a bit of a surprise package. It supports 6x9 and 6x6. I grabbed it last weekend to add interest to the lockdown exercise.

(Franke Rolfix II, Neopan 400 in PC-TEA 1+100)

eli griggs · Apr 30, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
This is from my Voigtlander Rollfilmkamera:

View attachment 244700

TMY, HC-110 G, hand held.

Here's a narrow crop from the above...

View attachment 244701

Nice shot showing detail.

darinwc · May 3, 2020

Helge said:
That’s some strange reasoning. So you never put other cameras than LF ones on a tripod?
A MF folder plus tripod is still a hell of a lot smaller than a 4x5 with suitable tripod and holders.
And there is a world of difference between using a folder handheld and fixed. Remember, many folders kind of have a build in tripod.

I think there point is, if you are going to take the time and effort to bring a tripod and setup the tripod and camera, you may as well use a large format camera.

Donald Qualls · May 3, 2020

darinwc said:
I think there point is, if you are going to take the time and effort to bring a tripod and setup the tripod and camera, you may as well use a large format camera.

I can see some folks thinking that way, but I usually carry only hand holdable cameras (usually a 35 mm of some stripe, currently my Kiev 4M, and a 6x9 folder, though the weather is warming up enough I won't have a jacket pocket for the 6x9 for the next few months). I still keep a lightweight tripod (quite adequate for a 35 mm RF or a light 6x9 folder, grossly under spec for any of my large format gear) in my car, and a cable release wherever I'm keeping the second lens for the Kiev and additional film rolls. That way, if I need to make an exposure too long to hand hold, I'm ready to do so, with either camera.

I reserve my plate cameras, RB67, and 4x5 gear for intentional shoots, and bring the heavy duty tripod. I might occasionally carry the Speed (with the 13.5 cm f/4.5 Tessar, for which the Kalart is calibrated) if/when I get a Grafmatic or two.

Helge · May 3, 2020

darinwc said:
I think there point is, if you are going to take the time and effort to bring a tripod and setup the tripod and camera, you may as well use a large format camera.

As said by Donald, tripods needn’t be big and cumbersome. Some the old period correct tripods are small and quite adequate for keeping a 6x9 folder still.
Something like this:

This can easily fit in a bag, often comes with a carrying holster and is easy to set up.
This was the mid century version of IBIS and is in most ways superior to just about any other method.
You can use it as a monopod or a crane stick (even selfie stick XO) if need be, because it’s so light and thin.

Donald Qualls · May 3, 2020

I've got one of those (a slighter flatter one with angled hinges on the legs). Honestly, I don't like it much; haven't actually used it in years. I've got a modern design aluminum one with friction locking three-section legs and a pan-tilt-rotate head on a lift-and-lock column. A little bulkier than that one fully folded, but (in my experience) a good bit steadier, and only a couple ounces heavier.

Helge · May 3, 2020

You can screw any head on top.
Usually I don’t extent the legs. They are already the perfect hight for many things.
Unless you are in quite windy weather you don’t need that much rigidity. Just keep a hand hovering around the camera or ball head, just in case.
Extending column is just nuts for a construction of about this size and scope, it has to be wobble town.

Donald Qualls · May 3, 2020

My aluminum tripod works okay with a lightweight camera on the column, but it's tall enough with just the legs extended I haven't needed the column much over the time I've owned it.

Budget 6 x 9 cm folders?

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