Bubbles in Developer or Light Leakes?

tsmyer · Apr 6, 2013

I have been developing my own film for a few years now, but my last few rolls of 120 have had some strange artifacts. The negatives have dark circles and blobs that run along the side of the negative without manufacturers markings (Fuji ACROS 100). I have included a sample one of the images with the problem.

A few details on my setup:
Camera: Yashica Mat 124G
Tank: Paterson System 4
Developer: Relatively Fresh XTOL Stock

Any suggestions would be appreciated, than you.

Arvee · Apr 6, 2013

Could be a camera light leak as it is only on one side; 120 film, if it spools loosely, will typically have some light leak blobs along both edges.

bdial · Apr 6, 2013

Dark areas in the positive are areas of lower density in your neg, light leaks would produce high density.
Airbells seem like it might be most likely. Sometimes residual wetting agent on the reel can be a cause, or you may need to be more vigorous in tapping the tank to dislodge any bubbles when you fill with developer.
Are you filling the tank, if not, then one edge might be slightly out of the developer.

albada · Apr 6, 2013

tsmyer said:
I have been developing my own film for a few years now, but my last few rolls of 120 have had some strange artifacts. The negatives have dark circles and blobs that run along the side of the negative without manufacturers markings (Fuji ACROS 100).

You posted a positive image, and the blobs are darker than the image, meaning that the blobs are lighter on the negative. If so, they cannot be light-leaks.

I suspect the developer is not covering the roll in the tank. Did you put at least 550 ml of XTOL in it? Also, when agitating a Paterson, the spool can creep up the centre post some. You can fix this after each agitation by thumping the tank downward against a hard surface or the palm of your other hand.

Good luck,

Mark Overton

pau68 · Apr 7, 2013

Do you presoak your film before developing? I had the same issue,
and I only could solve it with a 5m presoak to get rid of the antihalation
layer.

At first, I was blaming the Rolleiflex where the film came from, but it wasn't
the camera. The point is that the image area from my tlr is larger than the one
of my others mf cameras. Hence, when taking pictures with a Hasselblad, the marks
almost never appeared in the frame, while with the tlr, where the images come
closer to the border of the film, the marks where clearly visible.

My advice, then, is to presoak your film! (against Ilford's advice, I know)

ic-racer · Apr 7, 2013

tsmyer said:
The negatives have dark circles and blobs that run along the side of the negative without manufacturers markings

?

The image posted looks like it was printed from a negative with light blobs along the edge from air bubbles.

Ian Grant · Apr 7, 2013

Classic air bubbles, a presoak doesn't solve this problem, it's usually because of hard water.

I had quite an issue with this when I moved to Turkey, where our local water is very hard, and ran some tests with some scrap film. I found even with a presoak the air bubbles were very hard to dislodge, and new ones would form in the developer, the stopbath and the fixer.

Most commercial developers contain a water softening agent and often a trace of wetting agent but just ocassionally this is insufficient. In my case my developer had neither but a very small amount of wetting agent (drops no more) were sufficient to pervent the problem, too much wetting agent and you cause foaming which gives similar iregular mottling. I did visual inspections of the film in the various stages, that's why I used scrap film.

The key is the right amount of agitation consistent and even, too fast and hard actually added more bubbles.; Should add I was using a Paterson tank.

Ian

pau68 · Apr 7, 2013

Ian Grant said:
The key is the right amount of agitation consistent and even, too fast and hard actually added more bubbles.; Should add I was using a Paterson tank.

Ian

In my case, it took me some time and a lot of experiments to find that presoaking
was the solution (but I can only speak about my case). I changed from tap water
to deionized water - in Barcelona, water is very hard -, but it didn't do anything. I changed
the agitation method, with no improvements. Finally, I followed the advice of a very
experienced fellow photographer, who was using Jobo tanks , like me (1520 model, with or without
1530 attachment), and tried presoaking, which solved completely the problem.

It may be possible that the type of tank is a relevant variable here, since the size of the
reels is different in Jobo and Paterson tanks.

I would like to add that those marks only appeared in 120 film, not in 35mm. I'd say that the
antihalation layer is different, and, if not removed, creates foam that is trapped by the reels.

In any case, I would like to stress that the marks shown by the OP are identical to those in
my negatives, which make me think that his problem and mine may have the same solution.

Nicholas Lindan · Apr 7, 2013

My guess is that the primary problem is not enough developer - by a very small amount. If the level of the developer is right below the top spiral then air will be trapped under the reel when the tank is agitated. The bubbles probably aren't the result of foaming - though who knows...

This problem pops up regularly on the forum.

Simon R Galley · Apr 8, 2013

Pedantic probably but ILFORD say you have no need to pre-soak ILFORD Films not that you cannot or that we actually advise against it.

Its a personal choice.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Ian Grant · Apr 8, 2013

Nicholas Lindan said:
My guess is that the primary problem is not enough developer - by a very small amount. If the level of the developer is right below the top spiral then air will be trapped under the reel when the tank is agitated. The bubbles probably aren't the result of foaming - though who knows...

This problem pops up regularly on the forum.

You can check your own water by just filling a pint glass, there will often be bubbles that adhere to the wall at all depths, tappingetc doesn't dilodge them all.

This photo shows bubbles after a pre-soak, with plain water it's not a cure.

I was using Pyrocat HD and no amount of tapping, inversion agitation would remove all the air bubbles, actually the best form of agitation was to swirl the spiral that did help remove far more of the air bubbles. I was able to do repeated testing to see how best to eliminate my own problem

Commercial developers are balanced in terms of sequestering agents etc to cope with most domestic/commercial water supplies but there can be extremes. But care with agitation a combination of inversion anda twisting action to get the developer to swirl a little makse a huge differance.

Ian

pau68 · Dec 8, 2013

I'd like to correct myself in this old thread. I claimed that presoaking took care
of my problems with bubbles, but I was wrong. Presoaking may have improved
the situation when using small tanks (one reel, two films), but it did not solve it.

What did solve the problem was changing the agitation pattern. I used to agitate during the first 30s,
but this was not enough, mainly in larger tanks (three reels, six 120 films at a time).
I changed that to continuous agitation during the first minute, and then 5s every 30s.
After several dozens of developed film without bubble marks, now it really looks like the
problem is solved (at least for me, fingers crossed).

It seems that the first stages of the developing process are the crucial ones and it is very
difficult to correct any unevenness created at that point.

Best,
Pau

Xmas · Dec 8, 2013

I allways brim fill the tank irrespective of reel dimensions and use invertion agitation.
Never bang tank on bench.
Never had any bubbles yet.

pentaxuser · Dec 8, 2013

Xmas said:
.
Never bang tank on bench.
Never had any bubbles yet.

Interesting. Every book on film developing I have ever read has recommended tapping the tank on a surface after the first agitation to dislodge airbells. I can understand someone saying that tapping the tank on a surface does no good but I think your use of never suggests that tapping may make the problem worse.

If I have interpreted your meaning correctly can you say why you think that tapping the tank can or worse will make the airbell situation worse?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Christopher Walrath · Dec 8, 2013

I always fill the tank with it resting on the edge of the basin so if I need to dislodge air bells on filling I am already in position to do so.

And this is an old thread.

Francesco_Mussida · Nov 20, 2020

Ian Grant said:
You can check your own water by just filling a pint glass, there will often be bubbles that adhere to the wall at all depths, tappingetc doesn't dilodge them all.

This photo shows bubbles after a pre-soak, with plain water it's not a cure.

View attachment 49282

I was using Pyrocat HD and no amount of tapping, inversion agitation would remove all the air bubbles, actually the best form of agitation was to swirl the spiral that did help remove far more of the air bubbles. I was able to do repeated testing to see how best to eliminate my own problem

Commercial developers are balanced in terms of sequestering agents etc to cope with most domestic/commercial water supplies but there can be extremes. But care with agitation a combination of inversion anda twisting action to get the developer to swirl a little makse a huge differance.

Ian

Hi Ian,

Thanks for your advice. I've the same problem, I suppose... I read very different theory about that, but the bubble of air seems to have sense! In Milan, Italy, I have hard water too. I'll try to change my agitation scheme and I hope this damn problem disappear... I use 6x6 on my Rolleiflex 2.8f.

Francesco_Mussida · Nov 21, 2020

Hello everyone,
Today I scanned the film pay attention at:

slow develop movements (one minute), I'd changed my movements (now using a type of spiral "Jobo" movements and normal slow inversion, less Paterson kicks)
normal agitation for Stop and Fix (maybe some more agitation on Fix fase).

Results: every 12 frame are perfect!

I hope this new method will be fine for the future. I really say thanks everyone has comment this thread, you have save my rolls!

Francesco

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