Bronica... or Hasselblad?

[abstraxion]

I love the square.

I've been using my Mamiya C330 for awhile now, but it's so freaking HUGE (especially with the prism) that I'd like something smaller, though I will keep the C330 for its intense charm and great reactions from people when I use it.

I've been looking at other systems that offer the almighty square. The Hasselblad stuff, of course, the Bronica SQ system, and even the little known Bronica GS-1. Maybe you guys can help me decide.

Here are my Terms and Conditions:

-Money is tight for me right now. As much as I want to, I can't spend a ton of extra cash on getting the best. A Hasselblad 500C/M setup, at around $600, would be the absolute "stretching it" max for me. However, I anticipate having a better job in the medium-term future, so money won't always be an issue, hopefully. A decent Bronica setup is close to $350-450, and may be in slightly better condition, though the Hasselblad is likely more durable. Perhaps the Hasselblad would holds its value better?

-Small is good. I love the WLF and the Hassy is small and portable, and even aerodynamic like an Airstream.

-I'm not sure how I feel about metering. I'm using the C330 successfully now, so I'm OK with not having an internal meter, but maybe it would be nice? I'm up in the air about this.

-The dark horse: the Bronica GS-1 that is IMPOSSIBLE to find at a decent price (although I just lost an auction I fought mightily for on eBay) shoots 6x7... and 6x6 with a mere switch of the back. Pretty cool to have that flexibility. I know that some of the Mamiyas can do this to, but the GS-1 is slightly smaller than them, and it's already huge.

Is the Hassy advantage real? I'll be sticking with one normal, 80mm lens now. Is it worth the extra dough?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

If you're the sort of person who in the long term would be happy with a 1 to 3 lens kit and don't see yourself having an unlimited budget any time soon, then go for the Hassy.

If you're the sort of person who wants the basics plus an ultrawide, a tele or two, and a macro, three backs, and a prism then go for the Bronica, because it's the extras that will make the Hasselblad system much more expensive.

 

[abstraxion]

Yeah, that makes sense. It seems like the real killer is the accessories. Even though they're cheaper than they used to be, they really seem to add up... especially the more exotic lenses.

I will probably be a 1-3 lens system person. Maybe a prism, but that's about it. I already have some nice kit for my Minolta and Nikon systems, so I think I can satisfy my more extreme lens desires there.

 

[david b]

The Hasselblad system will far outlast the Bronica. It will probably be serviced for many many more years as well.

 

[Trond]

Buy a Bronica SQ-A and spend more money on film and paper. I don't believe Bronicas are less durable than Hasseblad, just make sure the equipment you buy hasn't been abused.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

I am biased, but love my Hasselblad system. I went through so many iterations of systems along my camera system journey, and am back firmly in the Hasselblad camp. It may cost a little more, but bargains can be had. If you are starting off with a 500 C/m and 80mm lens then you will have plenty of options at reasonable cost.

True, their lenses may cost more (especially the CFi or CFe ones) but the CT* and CF* lenses can be had for decent prices and are certainly no slouches performance wise either.

I am lucky and have 3 lenses. A 50 CFi, 80CF, and 150CF. In the past I had a 50 CT non* lens, and it was very sharp at F5.6 onwards, although maybe a little soft at the edge wider than that, but certainly not a bad performer. The CF and CFi lenses will liely be you most spendy lens in the typical 3 lens kit.

I also paid $400 for a great shape $150 CF* lens.

Your $600 should get you a 50 c/m, 80CF, WLF and maybe a back for that money. Again, it may take some time to find the right one for you.

I found a near mint NC-2 prism for $45! but I rarely use it. The WLF takes care of nearly all my shots.

 

[JRJacobs]

I can't really say if a Bronica is less dependable than a Hassie - I suspect it is just as good in this regard.

However, the lenses on the Hasselblad are superior to the Bronica. For me, that is what matters more. You can pick up a good 500C or CM kit with 80mm Planar, back etc for around $500. If you need more accessories, get them over time. In the meantime, the 80mm Planar is one heck of a lens if you have to be stuck with just one. I suspect if you like Hasselblad, and are only considering the Bronica because it is cheaper, you will always feel like you "settled", and will likely end up getting a Hasselblad anyway. Save yourself the trouble and get it in the first place.

 

[Trond]

However, the lenses on the Hasselblad are superior to the Bronica.

How do you know that? I'm asking, because the Zenzanon lenses I have for my very old Bronica S2A, are great. I have the 80mm 2.4, 100mm 2.8 and 150mm (and a 300mm I haven't had chance to use yet). The 100mm and 150mm I have are among the very first Zenzanon lenses, and they are stellar performers (the Nikkors are also good). The lenses for the SQ-system must be just as good, or better?

Let's start a flame war! ;-)

 

[David Henderson]

I don't think there's anything between them in terms of image quality.

I don't think issues like reliability of Hasselblads on average vs Bronicas on average are terribly relevent. You're only going to buy one camera and you'll presumably make sensible checks into its condition. A good Bronica is better than a middling Hasselblad ( and vice versa).

I think brand matters greatly to some people. If your feelings are that every time you look at your new to you Bronica you get a pang of remorse that you didn't take the chance to own a Hasselblad, buy one now. When the difference between two big systems could be measured in thousands, letting your head rule your heart was sometimes essential. Not really the case now.

If the timescale of how long it takes to put together your MF system of choice matters, get the Bronica.

If you have the chance of holding /using each of the cameras and seeing how intuitively you can work each of them, take it. I found that Bronicas were somewhat less quirky, but I don't imagine there's much about a Hasselblad that I couldn't have got used to. But note that when distracted we tend to revert to automatic pilot.

Buy the one with the best warranty- or indeed any warranty.

Buy the one where you know where you can get it fixed close to home. The facts that I went with Bronica and their national dealer was a ten minute drive away were not a coincidence.

 

[abstraxion]

Wow, thanks for the great responses everyone. I've used the Bronica for a day or two and while it produces excellent results, I still get a bit of camera lust whenever I look at the Hasselblad. Knowing that they're not THAT much different in price (since I'd stay with the 80mm right now, anyways) makes me wonder if I shouldn't just spring for it.

On the Hasselblad front: Does anyone have any advice on a page or book that delineates what, exactly, fits together in the Hasselblad system? What's the difference between a 12 back and an A12 back? And what's the difference between the massive number of different 80mm lenses you can get for the Hasselblad system?

 

[RPippin]

I have a Bronica SQA I've been shooting for the last three years, and swear by it. It's tough, light, dependable as a pet rock, and I'm constantly surprised at the sharpness of the lenses, as well as the reasonable prices. I picked up a spare body for very little on auction just to build a loaner and keep for a spare in case one goes in the shop. I've often thought about a Hassy, but when I check the prices on the better lenses they become a lot less apealing. I would always recomend the Bronica. You can buy tons of backs, prisms and lenses for very reasonable money. Get your hands on one and shoot a roll of Fuji Velvia, and some Acros and see for yourself.

 

[abstraxion]

What would be a fair price for the Bronica, say, an SQ-A with an 80mm 2.8 PS lens, an AE finder, a 120 back, and a speedgrip? What about without the finder or the grip and just the WLF? I ask because I can obviously see what KEH and the like are selling them for, but if they seem to be a bit high to anyone else, I'd be willing to wait.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

The ergonomics of the Bronica SQ system are really great, if that's a concern. The camera is lightweight and focuses quickly for medium format, and with the winding grip and a prism, it feels a lot like a big 35mm SLR, more so than, say, a Pentax 67, which looks more like a 35mm SLR. I suspect that this is the main reason they were so popular with wedding shooters.

For the record, the MF SLR system that I use is a Bronica S2a, and I have lots of lenses, backs and accessories that I couldn't afford, if they'd been made in Sweden. It's not as ergonomically attractive as the SQ system, but the Nikkor lenses are great, and it's very amenable to lens adaptations, which is a feature I like. The backs are switchable between 120 and 220, and they made a tilt-shift macro bellows that's also nice for portraits and other situations where you need to focus quickly.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

options for hasselblad 80mm lens and a back are:-

12 back is the oder version that does not have the film frame counter on it, and it has a window on the back so you can see that frame you are on. The A12 has the indicator that shows you the frame number and that the exposure was made and a crank for winding the film to the start line.

As for the 80mm lens. There are 80mm CT (no T* coated) , 80mm CT*, CF (all T* coated), CB (T* coated but with less lens elements and some say inferior), CFi Latest offering with latest T* coating and better mount durability, and made with better internal light baffles to minimze flare. 80mm CFE is T* coated and same as CFi, but has electrical contacts on the mount for more automated capability with the electronic bodies. Then there are the 80mm F lens. It's a T* coated lens that has no shutter and made specifically for use with the focal plane shutter bodies, and not the 500 C/M line.

I would look for a good used 80mm CF lens

 

[paulie]

bronica gs1 is fantastic, especially if you have the spot metered rotating prism.

i also have the 6x6 back picked it up for 50 euro mint.

i cant put the camera down it feels fantastic, the 110 macro is the best lens ive used , way better than the hassey lenses.

i picked up my gs with a prism and 2 backs for 270 euro, cheap.

so hang in there and buy bronicas flagship model, you wont regret it promise.

 

[rawhead]

Funny this should come up at this time, since I'm *just* in the process of switching over from a Bronica SQ-B to a Hasselblad 501c. OK, I hardly used the Bronica (just purchased the set in July), but personally, I chose to switch because of the future I see in Hasselblad. One, the system is still alive, and two, the presence of digital backs for the system. I can't afford them now, but perhaps 3-4 years down the line I would be able to. I also like Zeiss glass Anyway, if you're interested, my whole kit is currently on Ebay (http://shop.ebay.com/ciguatera303/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25). Unfortunately, the Macro 110/4 flew off the shelf, but the other ones are still for sale.

 

[Q.G.]

On the Hasselblad front: Does anyone have any advice on a page or book that delineates what, exactly, fits together in the Hasselblad system?

This page lists books you could read.

Recommended titles are Ernst Wildi's "Hasselblad Manual" (get - library? - a copy of the 3rd or 4th edition), and Richard Nordin's "Hasselblad System Compendium".

The first explains how things work together (almost everything in the Hasselblad system works with almost everything else. But not quite everything.), the latter is a listing of just about everything that is available.

What's the difference between a 12 back and an A12 back? And what's the difference between the massive number of different 80mm lenses you can get for the Hasselblad system?

On this page, there are many manuals you could browse available for download.

Any particular questions about anything: just ask here.


The A-type magazines have an automatic stop when the first frame is in position. The frame counter then stops at "1" automatically too.
The non-A magazines require you to peep through a hole on the back to watch the numbers on the film's backing paper to get the first frame in position. After which, you have to set the frame counter to "1" manually.
Apart from that, no difference worth mentioning.


The 80 mm lenses are (with two exceptions) all the same optical design.
The differences are mainly in the the barrel (ergonomics) and shutter (has one or not, and if it has, what model).

The first was a "C" lens, in "chrome" (brushed aluminium) finish. It contains a Synchro Compur leaf shutter. The glass initially only had a "single" layer anti reflection coating (called "T" by Zeiss).
The very earliest examples of this lens had a different optical design, which was changed to the one seen in all of the rest (bar one) very soon.

Then came the same C lens with "T*" (note the star) multicoating.
The barrel also changed from "chrome" to black.

After that, the barrel was changed (better ergonomics), and the Synchro Compur shutter was replaced by a Prontor CF shutter. This type is called "CF".
The "F" stands for "Focal plane", indicating that the leaf shutter could be switched off, to make use on a Hasselblad with focal plane shutter (2000- and 200-series) more convenient.

The CF was replaced by a CFE lens: a CF with again a new barrel, with better ergonomics. The "E" indicates it has electronic Databus contacts that transmit aperture data to the metering electronics in 200-series Hasselblad cameras.
After the 200-series cameras were discontinued, the Databus contacts diappeared, and the lens became available as a "CFi" Type (the same as CFE, but without the no longer needed Electronics).

There also was a CB lens available briefly. A different optical design, slightly less good. In anything else (barrel, shutter) it was a CFi type.

And also briefly, a "C" version was available that was basically a CF lens without the "F" functionality. Not to be confused with the earlier Synchro Compur C lenses!


All of the above have a leaf shutter, which all 500-series Hasselblad cameras need.

There were two versions of the 80 mm lens that did not have a shutter, and which can be used exclusively on Hasselblad 2000- and 200-series cameras.
The earliest of these was the "F" type. The later version had Databus contacts and was called "FE".
These two were again the very same optical design as the C/CF/CFE/new-C/CFi lenses.

 

[Q.G.]

12 back is the oder version that does not have the film frame counter on it, and it has a window on the back so you can see that frame you are on. The A12 has the indicator that shows you the frame number and that the exposure was made and a crank for winding the film to the start line.

Not quite that.
The non-A backs also have a frame counter and counter window.
You only need to look at the numbers on the paper backing to line frame 1 up.
The rest the back does for you, just like the A backs do.


Both non-A and A backs have the tripped/ready signal window.

 

[abstraxion]

bronica gs1 is fantastic, especially if you have the spot metered rotating prism.

i also have the 6x6 back picked it up for 50 euro mint.

i cant put the camera down it feels fantastic, the 110 macro is the best lens ive used , way better than the hassey lenses.

i picked up my gs with a prism and 2 backs for 270 euro, cheap.

so hang in there and buy bronicas flagship model, you wont regret it promise.

The GS-1 is cool, but impossible to find at a decent price! KEH, for example, has everything... but the WLF is around $130! Sure, it's LN quality, but I don't need that, and it's as expensive as the entire body. That's kinda ridiculous, in my humble opinion. If I could secure a GS-1 for around $400, that would definitely sway my decision.

 

[funkpilz]

I'm trying to make the same decision. Everything tells me I should go with the GS-1, it's the perfect camera for me in any and every way. But I just know that one day, sooner or later, I'll be craving a Hasselblad simply because it's a Hasselblad.

Still, I'm getting the GS-1 first.

 

[JRJacobs]

I think the GS-1 is a good idea in theory, but when I looked at one years ago a few things turned me off.

1. The lack of lenses available
2. The weight (more than a Pentax 67)
3. No revolving back (makes it difficult for portraits)


Looking at them now, I would additionally be turned off by the difficulty to obtain backs as well as repair parts - these are not very common cameras and if one were to break down, the availability of parts to repair is very small.

At the time, I ended up with a getting a Pentax 67 instead - lighter, great selection of lenses available, easy to use for portrait as well as landscape. The Pentax has it's drawbacks too, 1/30th sec flash sync and no interchangable backs, but that is what I have my Hasselblad for!

 

[Sirius Glass]

This page lists books you could read.

Recommended titles are Ernst Wildi's "Hasselblad Manual" (get - library? - a copy of the 3rd or 4th edition), and Richard Nordin's "Hasselblad System Compendium".

The first explains how things work together (almost everything in the Hasselblad system works with almost everything else. But not quite everything.), the latter is a listing of just about everything that is available.

I agree except Wildi's Hasselblad Manual 5th edition will be better for your needs. You can find it on the internet at a decent price.

Hasselblad is a system that has interchangeable parts dating back to 1957. The choice of parts is large.
Bronica has a system but it is not as extensive as Hasselblad.

Hasselblad is still in production and part are available.
Bronica is not in production.

Hasselblad is easy to get repaired.
Bronica may have parts problems sooner.

You do not have to buy everything at once a Hasselblad 501 or 503 and an 80 mm lens is sufficient.
Similar for Bronica.

If you buy a Hasselblad, you will not look back and say, "Gee, I wish I had bought a Bronica.
By your own admission, the opposite is not true.

Hasselblad is a system with many options and a path forward to digital if that is where you go in the future.
Bronica does not have digital in the future.

I would recommend getting a Hasselblad, two A12 backs, an 80mm CF lens and if you really want later a 45º angle prism with a light meter [PME]. There is no reason to spend the extra money for the lenses with the interface, CFi. Too keep the cost down get the CF lenses; the CFE lenses maybe better, but you have a budget to attend. I have CF lenses and while CFE lenses are newer and "better", I am very happy with the CF lenses.

When I first started into serious photography I wanted a Bronica. Now that I can afford either a Bronica or a Hasselblad. I choose the Hasselblad.

Steve

 

[abstraxion]

How does $550 for a 500 C/M in chrome, an 80mm C T* lens (I know, not a CF... a problem?), a WLF, and an A12 back sound from KEH in BGN condition? I may be able to get a better deal from some random person on eBay but I've been burned before on very small purchases (Canonet QL17) and I can't imagine the despondent state I'd be in if I were burned on a Hasselblad. Is the KEH deal worth the price or should I do a little wait-and-see?

 

[JRJacobs]

C *T lens is just fine. The only difference in the CF is the type of shutter used. The lens is the same design, with the same coatings.

That sounds like a good price for that kit.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Parts for a C lens are getting hard to find, but there are Hasselblad repair people [David Odess, I believe, that can fix them. http://www.david-odess.com/]

There are not parts problems with the CF lenses.

Steve