Bronica ETRS - rotary finder?

dugrant153 · Aug 5, 2011

Hi folks,

I ended up buying a multiscope adaptor for the meterless prisms on my Bronica ETRS and realize it's view is too small for me to focus using it. Too bad Was hoping to use it for street and candid photos (me looking down instead of at the person).

I was browsing the interweb and saw that there's a "rotary finder" option for the ETRS. I'm curious - what's the benefit of a rotary finder?

John Koehrer · Aug 5, 2011

The eyepiece rotates so you can use it like a magnifier at waist level or an eye level setup.

filmamigo · Aug 5, 2011

I have it, and find it less useful than I hoped.

The benefit -- no matter which way the finder is rotated, the image is erect and left-right correct, just like with a prism finder.

The drawbacks:

It's darker than looking into the waist-level screen directly, and harder to focus than using the waist-level with the magnifier flipped down.

I thought it would be a useful tool for when I shoot handheld portraits (allowing me the corrected prism view, even when shooting vertically and shooting from a lower position than eye-level.) But the rotating finder conflicts with either the speed-grip or the Metz flash when rotated to vertical.

I think this finder would work best:
- without a speedgrip or handlemount flash
- on a tripod
- in good light
- where you need the speed of having a left-right corrected image

Pupfish · Aug 6, 2011

Not quite the same, but in 35mm gear, the Pentax LX has one (System Finder Base FB-1 and the FC-1 Action Eyepiece); I used it extensively over many years. It's got high eye relief so you have a heads up view in fast-moving situations. Rotated 90˚, low angle work becomes a cinch. (It's terrific for macro of bugs, etc.) Similarly, overhead work shooting over crowds can be accomplished with the camera upside down. It works well with the camera on a copystand. Maybe best of all, when the camera is used piggybacked on a telescope, you've got eye-level viewing pretty much whatever the attitude of the telescope, due to the rotation of the finder. (It's also similarly useful when birding).
Unfortunately system finders have largely gone by the boards in the last 15 years or so as most pros doing these sorts of things have been using tethered cameras wherein a monitor becomes a remote viewfinder.

Deleted member 88956 · May 28, 2019

filmamigo said:
I have it, and find it less useful than I hoped.

The benefit -- no matter which way the finder is rotated, the image is erect and left-right correct, just like with a prism finder.

The drawbacks:

It's darker than looking into the waist-level screen directly, and harder to focus than using the waist-level with the magnifier flipped down.

I thought it would be a useful tool for when I shoot handheld portraits (allowing me the corrected prism view, even when shooting vertically and shooting from a lower position than eye-level.) But the rotating finder conflicts with either the speed-grip or the Metz flash when rotated to vertical.

I think this finder would work best:
- without a speedgrip or handlemount flash
- on a tripod
- in good light
- where you need the speed of having a left-right corrected image

While an old thread, is there anyone who can offer more input on usefulness of this rotary finder, especially when it comes to focusing vs. WLF? Is it correct it has zero magnification factor?

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 26, 2019

Resurrecting this thread as there seems to be very little info on this finder. Is it so unpopular?

Meanwhile I have found magnification ratio of 0.81 with supplied -1.5 diopter, so same as plain prism with same diopter installed. AE III in comparison is listed at 0.75 magnification and zero diopter. WLF is 1.15 (and 3.85 with magnifier flipped up).

I'm guessing it should not be much different for focusing then standard prism, which I find quite useful. Any takers on this for comments? Is it darker and harder to focus with then any of the other finders?

RedSun · Dec 26, 2019

Witold said:
Resurrecting this thread as there seems to be very little info on this finder. Is it so unpopular?

Meanwhile I have found magnification ratio of 0.81 with supplied -1.5 diopter, so same as plain prism with same diopter installed. AE III in comparison is listed at 0.75 magnification and zero diopter. WLF is 1.15 (and 3.85 with magnifier flipped up).

I'm guessing it should not be much different for focusing then standard prism, which I find quite useful. Any takers on this for comments? Is it darker and harder to focus with then any of the other finders?

This is a specialty finder, not any unpopular. It is popular and useful to some people. Here is what Bronica says about it:

Rotary Viewfinder E- The accessory makes reflex view-focusing very easy, as the eyepiece
rotates 90 deg. to the left or right for view-focusing a very bright and distinct erect image
which moves with the lens. For reflex viewing in horizontal/vertical formats, as well as eyelevel
view-focusing from the side.

Features:
1. Reflex view-focusing in both vertical and horizontal formats are very easy because the eyepiece section can be rotated 90 degree left or right
2. Idea for reflex-viewing from above or reflex-viewing of low-angle moving subjects
3. Easy view-focusing with bright, distinct upright image moving in the same direction as the lens

When you rotate the finder 90 degree, you can flip the camera body and shoot vertical, both ways. You do not need the grip and you can move the camera very quickly and easily. Since this is reflex viewing, it is much faster than the WLF which is laterally-reversed.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 26, 2019

RedSun said:
This is a specialty finder, not any unpopular. It is popular and useful to some people. Here is what Bronica says about it:

Rotary Viewfinder E- The accessory makes reflex view-focusing very easy, as the eyepiece
rotates 90 deg. to the left or right for view-focusing a very bright and distinct erect image
which moves with the lens. For reflex viewing in horizontal/vertical formats, as well as eyelevel
view-focusing from the side.

Features:
1. Reflex view-focusing in both vertical and horizontal formats are very easy because the eyepiece section can be rotated 90 degree left or right
2. Idea for reflex-viewing from above or reflex-viewing of low-angle moving subjects
3. Easy view-focusing with bright, distinct upright image moving in the same direction as the lens

When you rotate the finder 90 degree, you can flip the camera body and shoot vertical, both ways. You do not need the grip and you can move the camera very quickly and easily. Since this is reflex viewing, it is much faster than the WLF which is laterally-reversed.

View attachment 236918
View attachment 236919

Thanks, I have one coming and will give my own side of things. When I suggested "unpopular" it was due to rather small talk about it just about anywhere I looked. Not a problem Bronica material on it, just user actual experience.

RedSun · Dec 27, 2019

Witold said:
Thanks, I have one coming and will give my own side of things. When I suggested "unpopular" it was due to rather small talk about it just about anywhere I looked. Not a problem Bronica material on it, just user actual experience.

Some people do not know how to use it. Some people do not use it often. For the people who use it, they love it.

It is the same as the WLF. Some love it and some hate it for being too slow and cumbersome....

abruzzi · Dec 27, 2019

I'd love to try one out, but they're pretty uncommon. When I search eBay there are a couple dozen GS-1 rotary finders selling to the US. For the "E" finder there are non, but a couple non-US eBay matches that may or may not ship to the US. I like that they mimic the usability of WLFs but with portrait orientation as well, I don't like their bulk. 90% of the time I shoot my ETRSi with the WLF finder primarily to minimize bulk.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 27, 2019

abruzzi said:
I'd love to try one out, but they're pretty uncommon. When I search eBay there are a couple dozen GS-1 rotary finders selling to the US. For the "E" finder there are non, but a couple non-US eBay matches that may or may not ship to the US. I like that they mimic the usability of WLFs but with portrait orientation as well, I don't like their bulk. 90% of the time I shoot my ETRSi with the WLF finder primarily to minimize bulk.

I'll have personal input once I get in a week or two. It does add bulk to the camera in a substantial way, also weight (it's just under 0.5 kg by itself) and I can only hope to see a side benefit from that to make me smile at least once in a while. My main concern is actual viewing and focusing experience vs. WLF or plain prism. Large rubber eye cup can be of help to "sink" eye into the finder and focus on what it shows.

I always enjoy shooting with WLF and this purchase is more about finding the truth and if not too helpful shelve it. Just got a rather rare sports finder for ETR which I think Bronica stopped making quite some time before the whole camera production ceased. Might use it for pinhole set up on ETR.

abruzzi · Dec 27, 2019

I'd definitely like to hear your thoughts once you get the finder.

The flange distance on the Bronica is 69mm, so a pinhole in a body cap would probably be about 75mm from the film plane. Since 75mm is the standard lens, I suspect the sports finder would work well for that.

EdColorado · Dec 28, 2019

I look forward to your impressions Witold. I've had this finder for years but have never used it. I bought it "just in case" and thinking maybe I'd use it when doing some low to the ground macro work. I've not gotten around to that macro work either so haven't yet tried the finder. My norm is the AEIII finder which I love, along with the speed grip.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 28, 2019

EdColorado said:
I look forward to your impressions Witold. I've had this finder for years but have never used it. I bought it "just in case" and thinking maybe I'd use it when doing some low to the ground macro work. I've not gotten around to that macro work either so haven't yet tried the finder. My norm is the AEIII finder which I love, along with the speed grip.

Hold your horses then, I do hope to have a decent run with it in a couple of weeks.

Glad to hear about your affection for the AE III. Nearly got one last week, but held onto the decision just too long and it was gone. Pentax 645 (original, can't stand the NII) has been my go to 645 for all these years, but the ETRSi is becoming my favorite, mainly with WLF and hand crank, for its compactness. Speed grip is great which I'm sure is a perfect fit with the AE III.

abruzzi · Dec 29, 2019

I find the standard prism finder a bit awkward with out the grip, and the WLF is awkward with the grip. I discovered recently that there is a powered grip (auto advance) that is basically the same size as the unpowered grip. For a while I had only seen the big bully ones (of which there were supposedly two different models), but I just recently stumbled across the small one for sale. I never felt the auto advance was all that useful, but if there is no size penalty over the other grip, it might be worth it.

macfred · Dec 29, 2019

abruzzi said:
I find the standard prism finder a bit awkward with out the grip, and the WLF is awkward with the grip. I discovered recently that there is a powered grip (auto advance) that is basically the same size as the unpowered grip. For a while I had only seen the big bully ones (of which there were supposedly two different models), but I just recently stumbled across the small one for sale. I never felt the auto advance was all that useful, but if there is no size penalty over the other grip, it might be worth it.

It's called Motor Winder Ei (II) - KEH has one https://www.keh.com/shop/bronica-etr-etrs-etrsi-motor-winder-ei-266936.html
There are a two 'new old stock' on ebay.de but those are not cheap ...

abruzzi · Dec 29, 2019

macfred said:
It's called Motor Winder Ei (II) - KEH has one https://www.keh.com/shop/bronica-etr-etrs-etrsi-motor-winder-ei-266936.html
There are a two 'new old stock' on ebay.de but those are not cheap ...

KEHs photo is one of the large ones. The one I bought is this one:

https://www.keh.com/shop/bronica-etr-etrs-etrsi-motor-winder-ei-ii-663573.html

unfortunately it’s uncommon enough that KEH doesn’t have a photo. There are very few photos, but this one is the correct one:

The base is much thinner because the battery in in the handle. Instead of 6 or 8 ‘AA’ batteries, it takes a single 2CR5.

EDIT: this listing had the later model winder and a couple more photos: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Zenza-Broni...640487&hash=item41fc257971:g:AyQAAOSwvmxcfCDC

macfred · Dec 29, 2019

abruzzi said:
KEHs photo is one of the large ones. The one I bought is this one:

https://www.keh.com/shop/bronica-etr-etrs-etrsi-motor-winder-ei-ii-663573.html

unfortunately it’s uncommon enough that KEH doesn’t have a photo. There are very few photos, but this one is the correct one:

The base is much thinner because the battery in in the handle. Instead of 6 or 8 ‘AA’ batteries, it takes a single 2CR5.

I see ... sorry - my fault ... I found one on ebay.com - price is a little steep for me ...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zenza-Bron...TR-ETRS-ETRSi-ETRC-ETR-C-990517-/283403188593

abruzzi · Dec 29, 2019

Yeah, I wouldn’t pay that much either!

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 29, 2019

I like the speed grip, power winder must be making some noise and that I am growing tired of on the Pentax 645.

RedSun · Dec 30, 2019

abruzzi said:
I find the standard prism finder a bit awkward with out the grip, and the WLF is awkward with the grip. I discovered recently that there is a powered grip (auto advance) that is basically the same size as the unpowered grip. For a while I had only seen the big bully ones (of which there were supposedly two different models), but I just recently stumbled across the small one for sale. I never felt the auto advance was all that useful, but if there is no size penalty over the other grip, it might be worth it.

People normally use AE II and AE III with speed grip. But no point to use grip with the WLF since it is just awkward to do that way. WLF is positioned lower than eye level and you have to bend your arm. Also, grip adds the bulk and weight and makes it hard to use WLF.

abruzzi · Dec 30, 2019

RedSun said:
People normally use AE II and AE III with speed grip. But no point to use grip with the WLF since it is just awkward to do that way. WLF is positioned lower than eye level and you have to bend your arm. Also, grip adds the bulk and weight and makes it hard to use WLF.

Agreed, but surprisingly, I see ETRSi's and GS-1's for sale with the WLF and grip. Either someone thought they worked well that way, or a dealer cobbled them together from parts.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 30, 2019

abruzzi said:
Agreed, but surprisingly, I see ETRSi's and GS-1's for sale with the WLF and grip. Either someone thought they worked well that way, or a dealer cobbled them together from parts.

Exactly, but it appears that there must have been some dealer new packages offered with speed grip as many claimed to be original owners never had the manual crank, only the speed grip (so they said that is). If one considers cranks are fetching up $40 + alone, it just shows where they went.

RedSun · Dec 30, 2019

abruzzi said:
Agreed, but surprisingly, I see ETRSi's and GS-1's for sale with the WLF and grip. Either someone thought they worked well that way, or a dealer cobbled them together from parts.

The reason is that, some camera bodies are missing the hand crank. No one wants to sell hand crank separately since they are not made any more. So the sellers just use the hand grip, so they can put together a kit. This is fine with the folks do not want to use the WLF.

Deleted member 88956 · Jan 7, 2020

A quick update on the rotary finder for the ETRS which I have received today. Not much time spent yet, but to get one thing out of the way, rotary finder is significantly darker than WLF (that is expected), and it is also slightly darker than the standard prism. When I get the AEIII prism in a week or os I'll have full comparison for all of them.

As far as build and function goes, it is well made, solid, rotary reflex part moves with confident resistance, large rubber eye cup is comfortable and swing around easily enough to adjust as one might want to depending which way it is swung.

Even though finder is darker, split image on focusing screen behaves as well as with even the WLF. As magnification ratio is far below WLF (0.81 vs 1.15 by Bronica), in many situations it might be problematic to focus with it without a split screen variety.

Finder is also a large piece with weight of some 480g and switching from WLF is expectedly very noticeable. Not really an issue from my perspective, but for hand holding, quite a bit of extra beef. Also camera has different balance, not precisely top heavy to the point of falling over, but handling will need some getting used to.

With eye piece in vertical, camera body drops down like another level from WLF use, so in some cases this would be welcome for easier low shots.

Eye piece on either side puts camera close to face and well face can be used to stabilize the camera. Eye piece in side position almost intrudes into the film back handling wise. I don't see as a problem at all, but I can imagine some users complaining about it.

Eye piece will likely interfere with Speed Grip. I have not tried this configuration yet, but it probably does. I have to spend some time with it to what extent that is the case and whether speed grip is still usable.

Overall the price was about right, so no regrets, but I think anything above 120 EUR is quite a stretch of value vs. usefulness. It is not an everyday add on, unless someone is on a specific project where it helps. It can be used for general shooting, but darkness and ow magnification needs to be considered before leaving home with it and nothing else.

Bronica ETRS - rotary finder?

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