Bromophen - neutral | PQU - neutral-warm ?

[bernard_L]

I've been trying to obtain slightly colder (or less warm) tones from Foma Variant 111, compared to what I'm currently using.
Which is : either D-72 or ID-62. They give identical (to me) results.
Tried a modified ID-62 with no KBr and 2x benzotriazole. Still no difference in a side-by-side comparison of step wedges.

Then I came across this old Ilford leaflet (see below). From the time HP4 was still around and the dinosaurs... According to that, PQU is "neutral to warm", while Bromophen is "neutral", and even "attenuates the warm tone of Ilfomar". While there seems to be a consensus that PQU is more or less ID-62, I have not come across a reliable Bromophen equivalent.

Maybe modern papers have their tonality baked in more than in the past? Or, is there a way to cool down somewhat currently available neutral-tone papers?

• Ilford cold tone not an option, too difficult to procure
• glycin too expensive and degrades upon storage
• I had a good experience a long time ago with Eukobrom, but I strongly suspect that now it's just a name (like APX-100) and am reluctant to put down 25+€ just to find out; plus it is out of stock in EU, including fotoimpex.
• please no formulas copied from old collections of formulas; I've read them
• personally tested formulas are welcome

 

[pentaxuser]

I have yet to use my Bromophen but I have seen others' scans of prints. That's all anyone can see on a forum but those scanned prints all look very neutral to me. Not in fact much if any different from Ilfords Multigrade developer although some claim that Bromophen produces slightly warmer prints

pentaxuser

 

[Milpool]

You are correct in that contemporary papers generally have most of their characteristics baked in. Although I’m not sure how effective the usual suggested tweaks ever were in reality with older papers, in my experience those modifications do little (often nothing) to modify the colour of most current papers.

The easiest way to cool print colour is to add very small amounts of Phenyl-mercaptotetrazole to a standard print developer. Bellini sells the raw chemical but you can also get it in prepared form by purchasing Moersch Finisher Blue developer additive.

I've been trying to obtain slightly colder (or less warm) tones from Foma Variant 111, compared to what I'm currently using.
Which is : either D-72 or ID-62. They give identical (to me) results.
Tried a modified ID-62 with no KBr and 2x benzotriazole. Still no difference in a side-by-side comparison of step wedges.

Then I came across this old Ilford leaflet (see below). From the time HP4 was still around and the dinosaurs... According to that, PQU is "neutral to warm", while Bromophen is "neutral", and even "attenuates the warm tone of Ilfomar". While there seems to be a consensus that PQU is more or less ID-62, I have not come across a reliable Bromophen equivalent.

Maybe modern papers have their tonality baked in more than in the past? Or, is there a way to cool down somewhat currently available neutral-tone papers?

• Ilford cold tone not an option, too difficult to procure
• glycin too expensive and degrades upon storage
• I had a good experience a long time ago with Eukobrom, but I strongly suspect that now it's just a name (like APX-100) and am reluctant to put down 25+€ just to find out; plus it is out of stock in EU, including fotoimpex.
• please no formulas copied from old collections of formulas; I've read them
• personally tested formulas are welcome

View attachment 372479

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Selenium toning Fomabrom 111 warms it up appreciably. You might try that.

Doremus

 

[bernard_L]

@Milpool : Thank you ! You hit the nail on the head. I'll order some Finisher Blue soon as I need to restock some paper.
@Doremus Scudder : I need to cool the tone of Fomabrom 111, which I find slightly on the warm side. I already use occasionally selenium toning (T55) that produces (in my eyes) eggplant tones. What I was aiming for in my question is neutral to blue-black tones.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

... @Doremus Scudder : I need to cool the tone of Fomabrom 111, which I find slightly on the warm side. I already use occasionally selenium toning (T55) that produces (in my eyes) eggplant tones. What I was aiming for in my question is neutral to blue-black tones.

Sorry, I guess I was skimming too fast.

Cooler tones on Foma 111 would likely have to come from gold toning. I don't think tweaking the developer will do much.

And, there's always Ilford Cooltone...

Best,

Doremus

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

You could consult Moersch for a suitable developer.

 

[koraks]

Pointing out the bleeding obvious - how about replacing the phenidone in ID62 with metol?

 

[Ian Grant]

Pointing out the bleeding obvious - how about replacing the phenidone in ID62 with metol?

That's called ID-20, no Benzotriazole and 4g Bromide.

If you use a Warm tone paper like Fomatone 111. then you are going to get warm results. Extending development time will help kill the warmth slightly.

Ian

 

[Milpool]

In fact a warmer toned paper can tend to shift even more toward cold/blue-black than a neutral/cold paper when PMT is added to a developer.

 

[bernard_L]

Pointing out the bleeding obvious - how about replacing the phenidone in ID62 with metol?

First : Do not expand the thumbnails until you have performed the blind test.

Replacing phenidone with metol in ID-62 results in a close approximation of D-72. Except for the restrainer(s), but read on. I've tested both and claim that the tonality is identical. But, (you will say) D-72 has just bromide, while ID-62 has both bromide and benzotriazole. I had thought of that back when I made my tests and prepared also D-72/BTA with KBr replaced by 0.4g/litre (stock solution) of benzotriazole. I also tested ID-62/BTA with no KBr and 0.4g/l (stock) benzotriazole.

So that is 4 combinations. Exposed strips of Fomabrom Variant 111 under a Stouffer wedge (31x0.1) and a #2.5 filter. Developed in respective developers diluted 1+2 2min at 22°C. The four strips were scanned jointly using a V700, 300dpi, 48-bit Tiff. Then (Faststone) saturation cranked up to +100, image resized to 600 wide, saved as jpg.

Now expand the first thumbnail. Which strip(s) looks warmer? colder? For an objective assessment, I opened the image in Picture Window Pro, and used the eydropper to sample step #12 in the four strips. The second attached image is a (zoomed-in) representation of the the hue-saturation space. The small circle is "white". The symbol slightly to the upper right is the cluster of the four samples. Virtually identical.
So far the experiment only claims to reveal differences (or absence of-) between the developers. Note, however, that the samples are in the direction of Orange, consistent with my perception of the tonality as slightly on the warm side. That is not my main claim in the present post, so no need to argue whether a V700 can do absolute colorimetry.

The developers used for respective strips are revealed at the bottom of the Sports page.

• ID-62 (plain)
• ID-62 (0.4g BTA)
• D-72 (plain)
• D-72 (0.4g BTA)

 

[bernard_L]

If you use a Warm tone paper like Fomatone 111. then you are going to get warm results. Extending development time will help kill the warmth slightly.

Ian

I don't know about Fomatone 111. My question was about Fomabrom variant 111. True, I wrote "Foma Variant 111", which might be ambiguous, but further down "is there a way to cool down somewhat currently available neutral-tone papers".

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Interesting thread. I was going for the opposite, trying to slightly warm Ilfobrom Variant 112 and/or Ilford's MG FB Classic Matt. Started a thread on D-166 after seeing a video on it by the Naked Photographer. This thread makes me think I might try it the other way around.

What can you tell me about Kodak D-166 paper developer, compared to Ansco 130 ?

I'm working with both Ilford's MG FB Classic matt and Foma's Ilfobrom Variant 112 (matt), and am looking to control the warmth of the image through the paper developer — I'm not overly found of warmtone papers, but would like to add just a touch of warmth to the some of the images I'm working...

www.photrio.com

 

[pentaxuser]

In fact a warmer toned paper can tend to shift even more toward cold/blue-black than a neutral/cold paper when PMT is added to a developer.

What's PMT?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Milpool]

Phenyl-mercaptotetrazole (it has many synonyms - I think the IUPAC name is 1-phenyl-2H-tetrazole-5-thione but to avoid confusion it is easiest to use the CAS #86-93-1). It's a relative of benzotriazole but much more powerful. It's in a few developers but rarely used (actually it is in Ilfosol 3 if I remember correctly).

It used to be easier to obtain (Photographer's Formulary used to sell a handy methanol-based pre-mixed solution) but you can still get it from Bellini, or just buy a bottle of Moersch Finisher Blue which contains it. It is added to the developer in small amounts. In my experience it can be added to virtually any bog standard (as my Scottish boss would say ) developer. No fancy formulations needed.

What's PMT?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Doremus Scudder]

...
Now expand the first thumbnail. Which strip(s) looks warmer? colder? For an objective assessment, I opened the image in Picture Window Pro, and used the eyedropper to sample step #12 in the four strips. The second attached image is a (zoomed-in) representation of the the hue-saturation space. The small circle is "white". The symbol slightly to the upper right is the cluster of the four samples. Virtually identical.
...

I really don't think tweaking developers is going to get you very far. Even if you find a formulation that makes a difference, it is likely to be small. A lot of the Fomabrom's "warm" tone comes from the color of the emulsion itself. I'm not talking about the silver image, but the transparent gelatin, which is slightly orange/yellow. Take a moment to compare the unexposed borders on a Fomabrom 111 print with, say Ilford MG Classic or Cooltone. That tint affects the entire image to a certain extent.

I'm not sure why you are stuck on one paper. There are others to try that might immediately give you better (cooler) results without going to all the trouble you are going to. Bergger NB might be worth looking at in addition to both the Ilford MG Classic and Cooltone.

And, there are toning options (e.g., gold toning).

I guess my question is, what are you trying to accomplish here? Make a cooler-toned print or research developer formulations? Or are you somehow stuck with Fomabrom?

Best,

Doremus

 

[bernard_L]

I guess my question is, what are you trying to accomplish here? Make a cooler-toned print or research developer formulations? Or are you somehow stuck with Fomabrom?

Let's start from here, since that is where you formulated definite question(s).

Make a cooler-toned print

Yes

research developer formulations

No

I'm not sure why you are stuck on one paper. There are others to try that might immediately give you better (cooler) results without going to all the trouble you are going to. Bergger NB might be worth looking at in addition to both the Ilford MG Classic and Cooltone.

As concerns Ilford. Gave up on MGIV because of (a) price (b) unresponsive to Se toning. MGV aka Classic maybe better Re: Se toning but (prices from fotoimpex):
ILFORD Multigrade FB Classic 1K - Natural Gloss 17,8x24 CM (7x9,45 INCH) / 100 Sheets 142,90 EUR
FOMA Fomabrom Variant 111 - Natural Gloss 17,8x24 CM (7x9,45 INCH) / 50 Sheets 51,90 EUR x2 = 103.80 EUR
not a trivial difference. Plus, I think the product is good, and I'm not alone:

In Praise Of Fomabrom Variant III 111 VC FB

I have been silver printing for upwards of 5 decades on- and off, so I've seen papers from Velox, to Kodabromide, to Polycontrast, to Zone VI graded, to ... well, modern times. I just wanted to put in a plug for the aforementioned Formabrom. The stuff is just ... well, gorgeous. It has a...

www.photrio.com

And I'm not "stuck on one paper". I've adopted Ilford Multigrade V RC (Deluxe) in Pearl (44) for albums.

As concerns Bergger, this drop-down (again fotoimpex, # choices for FB variable contrast) tells it all. Who knows what the number BERGGER(X) will be 3 years from now?

A lot of the Fomabrom's "warm" tone comes from the color of the emulsion itself. I'm not talking about the silver image, but the transparent gelatin, which is slightly orange/yellow. Take a moment to compare the unexposed borders on a Fomabrom 111 print with, say Ilford MG Classic or Cooltone. That tint affects the entire image to a certain extent.

I repeated the same process as in my post #11 above, but this time Ilford MG IV versus Fomabrom 111 variant (previous tests kept on file). Both developed in D-72. This time I sampled step #28. Top is MGIV, bottom Fomabrom 111. Disregard the Hue/Sat numbers above the colormap; I guess they reflect the position of the mouse. This measurement does not support your statement. Maybe my MGIV was old, but definitely the Fomabrom 111 is neutral relative to the calibration strip of my V700.
Fomaspeed variant is another story.

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks,Milpoo.l From what you say, this is certainly the stuff that I would be considering were I the OP. Pity that Ilford stopped making its cool tone developer many years ago That and its Cool Tone paper really made the print almost icily cold Even I could see the difference it made

pentaxuser

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Bernard,

I understand the price factor here. I'd be looking for a work-around with Fomabrom as well if I were in your place. Prices are a lot closer for the products here in the States. Bergger is actually cheaper than Fomabrom at Freestyle. Fomabrom is a good product.

It's interesting that your tests find Fomabrom as, or more, neutral than Multigrade Classic. Did you compare unexposed parts of a print? The borders on my Fomabrom prints are always yellower than the Ilford papers.

Other than developer tweaks (more BTA, using Metol instead of phenidone, etc., the only other thing I can think of is gold toning. Have you looked into that? Or getting your hands on some PMT?

Best,

Doremus

 

[bernard_L]

Feedback.

In the meantime, I have received some Moersch Blue Finisher and made tests. Fomabrom variant 111. Stouffer step wedge 0.1D steps. ID-62 1+2 2min @22°C. Amounts 0, 5ml, 10ml per litre of working solution.
Executive summary. It works. Thanks to all those who gave positive input, especially @Milpool who gave an effective solution already in post #3.

Below the test strips. Scanned as 48-bit tif, then as final step resized and converted to jpg for forum display. First as-scanned, next with saturation enhanced to +50 (whatever that means) in PictureWindowPro. Repeat for those who practice speed reading: Amounts 0, 5ml, 10ml per litre of working solution.

Also repeat what I wrote in a previous post: no claim to absolute colorimetry. Here, neutral white is defined by the cal strip of my V700. This said, the rendition on my screen agrees with the in-person viewing of the strips: Fomabrom "as-is" has warm tones (the intermediate values). At 5ml/l of Blue Finisher, mostly neutral tones, only-so-slightly on the cold side. Speed loss @5ml/l about 2 wedge steps, i.e. 2/3 stops. @10ml/l twice as much.

Not that I'm bothered by the speed loss, but I'll try halving the amount and see if neutralizing remains effective.

 

[mshchem]

Kodak Blue Toner, contains gold chloride, warm tone papers turn brilliant blue, cold tone papers blue black. I love the stuff but it's more expensive than everything else put together.

 

[Milpool]

Hi Bernard, thanks for updating. These results are fairly consistent with my tests of PMT (the active ingredient in Finisher Blue) with MQ developers and Ilford papers. Depending on the amount used/required, some speed loss is normal given PMT is a powerful restrainer.

Feedback.

In the meantime, I have received some Moersch Blue Finisher and made tests. Fomabrom variant 111. Stouffer step wedge 0.1D steps. ID-62 1+2 2min @22°C. Amounts 0, 5ml, 10ml per litre of working solution.
Executive summary. It works. Thanks to all those who gave positive input, especially @Milpool who gave an effective solution already in post #3.

Below the test strips. Scanned as 48-bit tif, then as final step resized and converted to jpg for forum display. First as-scanned, next with saturation enhanced to +50 (whatever that means) in PictureWindowPro. Repeat for those who practice speed reading: Amounts 0, 5ml, 10ml per litre of working solution.

Also repeat what I wrote in a previous post: no claim to absolute colorimetry. Here, neutral white is defined by the cal strip of my V700. This said, the rendition on my screen agrees with the in-person viewing of the strips: Fomabrom "as-is" has warm tones (the intermediate values). At 5ml/l of Blue Finisher, mostly neutral tones, only-so-slightly on the cold side. Speed loss @5ml/l about 2 wedge steps, i.e. 2/3 stops. @10ml/l twice as much.

Not that I'm bothered by the speed loss, but I'll try halving the amount and see if neutralizing remains effective.

View attachment 375174


View attachment 375175

 

[Augustus Caesar]

You may want to try Defender/DuPont 54-D:

Defender/DuPont 54-D cool tone developer - correct formula?

I was making up a litre of this paper developer tonight (I like the colour it produces) using the formula below, when I suddenly thought, That seems an awful lot of carbonate ... so I regoogled around and found variations. Water 750ml Metol 2.7g Sodium sulfite (anhy) 40g Hydroquinone...

www.photrio.com

Metol 2.7g
Sodium sulfite (anhy) 40.2 g
Hydroquinone 10.5g
Sodium carbonate (anhy) 75g = mono 85g
KBr 0.8g
Water to 1 litre