Bromoil woes

[pekelnik]

Hello apug!

I need some help and I guess this is the place to ask. I've been trying to do bromoils for a few months now, and so far I have no success whatsoever. There is something broken in my process but I have a few candidate and since changing each variable costs me many hours of valuable time, I'm hoping someone can find the culprit directly.

I end up with print that reveals no image at all upon inking.

Papers: Ilford FB MG IV matte, Fomabrom Variant 123 semi-matte.

My process:
1) Develop (Moersch SE4 neutral developer, 2-3 minutes)
2) Stop (ascorbic acid?)
3) Fix (Calbe A300, 1+8 minutes)
4) Wash (10+ minutes in running water)
5) Bleach (Moersch bromoil bleach, 10+ minutes)
6) Wash (10+ minutes in running water)
7) Fix (like 3) )
8) Wash (20 minutes in running water)
9) Dry

I let it soak in 20 degree water (submerged) for about 5-10 minutes, upon inking, the ink spreads evenly showing no texture or image.
I re-soak for 2 minutes, dry off, this time the previous layer of ink (and gelatine?) gets taken off, even if my brush or roller touch is very light.
Interestingly, on the ilford paper, some hint of an image appears if I completely ink the image to flat black and then start taking it off
with heavy roller use. However, the image is far from usable and further attempts to improve it remove it as well.

Any ideas what is the problem? Developer? Fix? Bleach? (I sent an email to Moersch directly, but got no response so far. I'm not sure what is in the bleach.)
Thanks..

 

[cliveh]

I am not familiar with Moersch bromoil bleach, but is this also a tanning solution? It sounds like you are just bleaching the image without differentially hardening areas where you want the ink to take.

 

[pekelnik]

That would mean it lacks the potassium dichromate? That sounds like a possible explanation. People mention "swelling of gelatine",
I don't believe I see anything like that, the surface looks uniform.

 

[gandolfi]

That would mean it lacks the potassium dichromate? That sounds like a possible explanation. People mention "swelling of gelatine",
I don't believe I see anything like that, the surface looks uniform.

if no dichromate you won't see the swelling as all is swelled...

I am sure Moersch will answer your question soon enough - he usually do...

I am not familiar with your fix - is it a non hardening fix? (has to be) (I use Tetenal Vario fix)

 

[pekelnik]

if no dichromate you won't see the swelling as all is swelled...

I am sure Moersch will answer your question soon enough - he usually do...

I am not familiar with your fix - is it a non hardening fix? (has to be) (I use Tetenal Vario fix)

I have been told it doesn't at some point, but I'm not sure. This website: http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/products/3510/adox-a300-univeral-fixer-5-litres
claims that it is Sodium Thiosulfate based, but here :http://forum.fotoimpex.de/index.php?showtopic=1224 a claim
is made that it is Ammonium Thiosulfate. I think I can instead use this one:
http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/fix_stop_waesserung/24/ats_schnellfixierbad_sauer
which explicitly states there is no hardener.

 

[gandolfi]

I have been told it doesn't at some point, but I'm not sure. This website: http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/products/3510/adox-a300-univeral-fixer-5-litres
claims that it is Sodium Thiosulfate based, but here :http://forum.fotoimpex.de/index.php?showtopic=1224 a claim
is made that it is Ammonium Thiosulfate. I think I can instead use this one:
http://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/shop/fix_stop_waesserung/24/ats_schnellfixierbad_sauer
which explicitly states there is no hardener.

good idea - you have to be sure...

The Tetenal I mentioned is great as it comes as a powder - which mean it is shipped for far less money and lasts an internity...

http://www.macodirect.de/tetenal-vario-powderbrfor-liter-p-1520.html

EDIT: just read the moersch description and it states no hardening is added, but it also states it is ammonium based... (I might be wrong, but I have been told tostick to sodium based fixers) - I'd try the Tetenal... (as I know it works)

 

[cliveh]

Good old Sodium Thiosulphate fixer is fine for bromoils (crystals cheap as chips).

 

[pekelnik]

good idea - you have to be sure...

The Tetenal I mentioned is great as it comes as a powder - which mean it is shipped for far less money and lasts an internity...

http://www.macodirect.de/tetenal-vario-powderbrfor-liter-p-1520.html

EDIT: just read the moersch description and it states no hardening is added, but it also states it is ammonium based... (I might be wrong, but I have been told tostick to sodium based fixers) - I'd try the Tetenal... (as I know it works)

I think the first thing I'm going to try is to mix my own bleach/tan solution. I don't suppose I could re-bleach the prints I have now and fix them again?

 

[Jerevan]

The Tetenal is a mix of sodium and ammonium thiosulphate if I recall correctly - I was in touch with Tetenal asking them about the composition of the fixer, as I was looking for a lith-friendly fixer.

Secondly, I think that Moersch wouldn't sell a bleach that does not bleach/tan. To me it sounds like the swelling time is too short. There is a correlation between the hardness of the ink and the swelling of the gelatine. And the swelling of the gelatine is dependent on the tanning, how warm and how long the paper is kept in the water.

 

[GLSmyth]

One thing that I am not seeing in the listing is the time you allow the paper to dry. The paper should be dried overnight (I take the extra step of putting the paper in a dry mount press). I have heard of Moersch bromoil bleach, though never used it, and have heard that it offers good results, so I doubt that that is the problem unless it has not been properly mixed (I have made this mistake, so that is a possibility). Actually, I would think that this is the most likely problem.

I didn't see a mention of the ink you are using, which makes a huge difference. The ink I use has the consistency of cheese and there is no way it would be able to come from a tube. If you are using ink thinner than that then you will need to use magnesium carbonate as a stiffening agent.

Cheers -

george

 

[pekelnik]

The Tetenal is a mix of sodium and ammonium thiosulphate if I recall correctly - I was in touch with Tetenal asking them about the composition of the fixer, as I was looking for a lith-friendly fixer.

Secondly, I think that Moersch wouldn't sell a bleach that does not bleach/tan. To me it sounds like the swelling time is too short. There is a correlation between the hardness of the ink and the swelling of the gelatine. And the swelling of the gelatine is dependent on the tanning, how warm and how long the paper is kept in the water.

So, what would you suggest? Do I need to keep the paper in water longer? What about the fact that the ink will go off no matter what after the inked print is put into water again and taken out? Or maybe I was bleaching the prints for too long? I think I could cut down on the bleaching time if I did more active agitation.

 

[pekelnik]

One thing that I am not seeing in the listing is the time you allow the paper to dry. The paper should be dried overnight (I take the extra step of putting the paper in a dry mount press). I have heard of Moersch bromoil bleach, though never used it, and have heard that it offers good results, so I doubt that that is the problem unless it has not been properly mixed (I have made this mistake, so that is a possibility). Actually, I would think that this is the most likely problem.

I didn't see a mention of the ink you are using, which makes a huge difference. The ink I use has the consistency of cheese and there is no way it would be able to come from a tube. If you are using ink thinner than that then you will need to use magnesium carbonate as a stiffening agent.

Cheers -

george

I first dried the paper in a dryer (not sure what it's called, a heated but curved metal surface with cloth that keeps the paper firm to it) at about 40 degrees, then I left it dry for 2 days if I remember correctly, certainly at least 24 hours.)

By improper mixing you mean I didn't shake the bottle properly before mixing it with water? That could be, although it didn't sit on the shelf for very long. Meanwhile, I have the chemicals to mix my own bleach/tan solution, not sure if I shoud do that or try again with better mixed Moersch. I got unforunately no reply to my inquiry (perhaps because I wrote in English rather than German?) and the bleach is not mentioned on Moersch website as far as I can see.

I am using pretty stiff lithographic ink that came in a can from Daniel Smith. I doubt it's a problem with the ink, I can imagine that I would get poor results with poor ink, but I get literally nothing although the texture looks pretty much like I would expect. In particular, there are no areas where the ink doesn't take, I could easily make it pretty dark black with a few passes of the brush.

 

[cliveh]

I am using pretty stiff lithographic ink that came in a can from Daniel Smith. I doubt it's a problem with the ink, I can imagine that I would get poor results with poor ink, but I get literally nothing although the texture looks pretty much like I would expect. In particular, there are no areas where the ink doesn't take, I could easily make it pretty dark black with a few passes of the brush.

I use lithographic ink with no problem.

 

[pekelnik]

This is what my inking looks like:
1) First layer. The only place where the ink doesn't stick looks like a paper defect. (left/below center)

2) Light application of second layer, after being put for another 2-3 minutes into water. First layer is peeling
off in places

3) Continuing with application, ink sticks except for places where the emulsion (?) lifts off, it seems the pattern is maybe pattern of rollers while being coated.

4) Using a roller I can take off the top layer easily, the stuff under seems uniformly smooth. At this stage I would see some hints of an image if the paper was matte ilford FB IV. At this stage it's just experimenting, since the second photo it was clear I'm not getting anything out of it.

 

[Jerevan]

So, what would you suggest? Do I need to keep the paper in water longer? What about the fact that the ink will go off no matter what after the inked print is put into water again and taken out? Or maybe I was bleaching the prints for too long? I think I could cut down on the bleaching time if I did more active agitation.

Yes, my suggestion would be to keep the paper in water for longer. The longer the paper is in water, the more the gelatine swells (which gives you a higher relief onto which the ink sticks). The gelatine gets softer with more water so it might get more easily abraded. When you put in the water again, after inking a first time (or second, etc) you'll lose some ink - that's natural.

I don't think the bleaching times are too long.

The drying does not need a heat dryer. And though you are using low temperatures, I think you might be cooking the if you left it for 24-48 hours in the dryer. I might have understood this wrong? I would dry it naturally and then just a bit before inking do the "superdrying" that Derek Watkins talks about in his book.

Apart from this, I don't know if you have any books or any other material at hand, so a few suggestions:

Derek Watkins - Bromoil - A Foundation Course - good book with a lot of tips and tricks

http://www.bromoil.info/reading room.html - a very good selection of older books, I like Emil Mayer, for example this one: http://www.bromoil.info/PDF BOOKS/mayer_book/mayer_contents.html

Video of Joy Goldkind making a bromoil:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[pekelnik]

No, I haven't been drying it for that long in the dryer, only about 20 minutes, I only use a hairdryer to remove excess moisture from the cloth that is over the image, and I don't do it always. Do you think I should be letting it to dry more during the successive ink applications? I have a few more sheets to try and I planned to make another few today with mixed chemicals instead of pre-made bleach/tan..

 

[GLSmyth]

From the images it looks like there is no tanning. I would mix up the Trevor Jones formula and give that a shot:


Trevor Jones Bleach
Stock Solution A (10% copper sulphate)
Copper sulphate 100g
Distilled water to make 1 liter

Stock Solution B (10% potassium bromide)
Potassium bromide 100 g
Distilled water to make 1 liter

Stock Solution C (1% potassium bichromate)
Potassium bichromate 10 g
Distilled water to make 1 liter

For use mix 70ml A, 70ml B, and 30ml C with water to a total volume of 1 liter. The use of distilled water obviates the need for an acid to clear precipitate, though David Lewis indicates that a drop or two of strong sulphuric acid will speed the bleaching process. I do not add any acid. All these solutions will keep indefinitely in brown glass bottles.

Distilled water should be used with all of this, unless you have tested your water and understand what is in it. Bleach for 8-10 minutes - a 1 liter mixture should work for about 8 8x10" prints (perhaps only 6 if you are using Ilford MGIV).

I completely agree that Bromoil: A Foundation Course (http://amzn.to/TrUS89) is an excellent resource.

Cheers -

george

 

[Jerevan]

Aha, good to know you didn't roast them slowly in the dryer!

I have used the bleach solution George mentions above - no acid added either and distilled water to make the solutions. Obviously - handle the potassium bichromate with great care and good protection (breathing mask and gloves at very least).

 

[pekelnik]

I bleach/tanned 2 more prints in solution from George's post, within the tolerance of the scales.. I'll see tomorrow.

 

[pekelnik]

No improvement. Even when I leave the print soak for 25 minutes, I see no difference in texture between fully exposed and completely white parts. There is no difference whatsoever apart from the uniform matte finish. My negatives and slides have more texture than the print. The one thing that I noticed with the new solution is that although I can still see paper defects, ink sticks to the paper much better and I would need substantial force to wipe it all off.

What is the mechanical basis? The gelatine should be smooth, right? I don't think there is any gelatine left if this is how it should be.

Fixer issue?

 

[cliveh]

Keep it damp.

 

[pekelnik]

It was soaking wet, normally I abuse the hell out of it afterwards so I tried a wet roller with paint and other things. The ink just immediately catches on to everything. And inspecting the paper, I see no reason it shouldn't.

 

[cliveh]

Perhaps it is the paper you are using. Does it have a super coat?

 

[pekelnik]

It's Fomabrom Variant IV 123, seems to be pretty popular for bromoil.

 

[Jerevan]

You need to keep the paper damp during the inking as Clive says. The basis for the process is the relief (the proportionally tanned gelatine). If the gelatine gets really saturated with water you should be able to actually feel this relief. If it dries out, the relief goes away and with it gone you get no differentiation and thus only flat colour.

Instead of me recapitulating the books, I think the most sensible way is to a) watch the Joy Goldkind video and b) get down to reading at least one of the books mentioned.

Another idea is this - try using liquid emulsion on watercolour paper, as described here in this book: http://www.blurb.com/b/3544067-bromoil-printing-using-liquid-emulsion-as-base

Gandolfi is a member here and maybe he can chime in a bit about his methods.

Keep on going - you will succeed. Don't give up!