Bromoil woes

pekelnik · Jun 29, 2014

Jerevan said:
You need to keep the paper damp during the inking as Clive says. The basis for the process is the relief (the proportionally tanned gelatine). If the gelatine gets really saturated with water you should be able to actually feel this relief. If it dries out, the relief goes away and with it gone you get no differentiation and thus only flat colour.

Instead of me recapitulating the books, I think the most sensible way is to a) watch the Joy Goldkind video and b) get down to reading at least one of the books mentioned.

Another idea is this - try using liquid emulsion on watercolour paper, as described here in this book: http://www.blurb.com/b/3544067-bromoil-printing-using-liquid-emulsion-as-base

Gandolfi is a member here and maybe he can chime in a bit about his methods.

Keep on going - you will succeed. Don't give up!

I did all of the above with the exception of coating my own paper. I can try that too as I have emulsion, but I'd prefer not to to be honest.

I can try soaking longer, but if I get no result after half an hour in 25 degree water, I don't see how soaking it for 5 hours would help. I'm not drying it after I take it out, I just wipe off water pools with a wet paper towel.

On the plus side, I feel that my inking technique is pretty good by now

Here is the last attempt:
After first light coat

After second coat:

Note that the only thing shown immediately is what looks like damage to the top layer, I do not know what from.

Thanks for all the help so far. I think next step would be to replace fix with hypo and perhaps try something like rodinal or XTOL for developer. (My options are rather limited, everything takes a lot of time and I need to adhere to relatively strict disposal rules.)

M Carter · Jun 29, 2014

I had great results right off the bat with the Bostick & Sullivan bromoil bleaching kit, and followed the included instructions. I get the pleasure of mix-it-yourself, but this stuff worked with no hassles.

I used Foma paper that's popular for bromoils.

Hours of googling led me to the soak & bake idea... Dry after bleach & wash. Soak again and heat-dry. (I warmed up my oven, turned it off, and just set the print on a cookie sheet, I don't have a dryer or a press). Many people believe that multiple soaks with heat drying do something bromoil-friendly to the emulsion.

This was my first session, second print - once you get the tanning down, there's nothing on earth that can teach you the inking technique but doing it. I found foam sponges (dense stuff, like upholstery padding) to be very forgiving, but I was after a very gritty look. The entry-level brush from B&S was just right for me (and cheap, too). It's pretty magical when you get it to work.

(Neg for this was 6x7, Ilford HP5 plus in Rodinal).

GLSmyth · Jun 30, 2014

Soaking time is not the problem - I soak Foamabrom Variant IV 123 for about 7 minutes at room temperature. When you take the print out of the soak I assume that you are removing all surface water.

I am running out of ideas otherwise. I'm not sure where you are located but if you are in the D.C. area then you could stop by one of my workshops and observe - there must be something fundamentally wrong since you are getting nothing (my mistakes normally get me at least some results, with the exception of the time I incorrectly weighed out my chemicals).

Cheers -

george

pekelnik · Jun 30, 2014

GLSmyth said:
Soaking time is not the problem - I soak Foamabrom Variant IV 123 for about 7 minutes at room temperature. When you take the print out of the soak I assume that you are removing all surface water.

I am running out of ideas otherwise. I'm not sure where you are located but if you are in the D.C. area then you could stop by one of my workshops and observe - there must be something fundamentally wrong since you are getting nothing (my mistakes normally get me at least some results, with the exception of the time I incorrectly weighed out my chemicals).

Cheers -

george

Sadly, I'm in Europe, and D.C. is quite out of the way even when I travel to the US. I think what I'm getting is consistent with hardening fix. I assume hardening fix would make gelatine not take in water at all..

Xmas · Jun 30, 2014

pekelnik said:
Sadly, I'm in Europe, and D.C. is quite out of the way even when I travel to the US. I think what I'm getting is consistent with hardening fix. I assume hardening fix would make gelatine not take in water at all..

simple hypo with nothing else is safest and cheap

cliveh · Jun 30, 2014

Fix with sodium thiosuphate.

gandolfi · Jun 30, 2014

I do not claim to anything of an expert when inking bromoil on "normal" paper... BUT the images you showed us last (post 26) reminds me of what I can get if I soak too long ! not too short... (and the vertical lines seems to be a result of extra swelling of the gelatine after you have wiped the water off (not carefully enough)....

So why not try a much shorter soaking time?

I know it is different but I can start inking my Bromoils after one minute in cold water....

One question though: why would you not go for liquid emulsion? (it is much easier and provides much more variation...)

pekelnik · Jul 1, 2014

I can try soaking it for shorter time (but I originally tried about 5 minutes in about 15 degree water and got nothing), but I would be surprised if that gave me something if I get nothing whatsoever. Having the lines from extra swelling of the gelatine from standing water seems unlikely as well, I checked that I don't have any remains, to me it is more likely that it happened while wiping off the water after processing- grain of sand damaged the paper and perhaps gelatine under a hard upper layer was cracked and exposed to water.

As for liquid emulsion, using that is adding one unknown to my process which I don't want to do right now until I find out what is failing. If I look through the past posts of people having bromoil issues here and elsewhere, they always have too low contrast, or too high contrast, or ink wiping off and smudging.. in other words, they always get at least something. So I don't think a small variation in the process is going to get me something instead of nothing.

GLSmyth · Jul 1, 2014

pekelnik said:
Sadly, I'm in Europe, and D.C. is quite out of the way even when I travel to the US. I think what I'm getting is consistent with hardening fix. I assume hardening fix would make gelatine not take in water at all..

Correct, if you are using fix with hardener in it then you are not swelling the emulsion - if you are using hardening fix then definitely change to sodium thiosulfate (I use quick fix without the hardener added).

When I soak too long the ink does not initially take, but as the paper eventually dries out the ink starts to be applied.

Cheers -

george

gandolfi · Jul 2, 2014

pekelnik said:
As for liquid emulsion, using that is adding one unknown to my process which I don't want to do right now until I find out what is failing. If I look through the past posts of people having bromoil issues here and elsewhere, they always have too low contrast, or too high contrast, or ink wiping off and smudging.. in other words, they always get at least something. So I don't think a small variation in the process is going to get me something instead of nothing.

I understand - however when I started out Bromoil printing I got in all sorts of trouble untill I thought of using LE as base.... now I get something..

cliveh · Jul 2, 2014

gandolfi, that last portrait is very powerful.

pekelnik · Jul 6, 2014

I fixed with ilford rapid, as that was the only thing nearby that certainly doesn't contain hardener and there is progress! Initially the dabbing-with-a-brush approach left ink everywhere equally, but when I started smearing it it started catching in some places more than in others. It is still far from the ease of applying that can be seen on youtube videos of both people that have been doing it for decades and people that are doing it already for 3 days, but a starting position is a starting position!

Thanks for the help, patience, and suggestions!

GLSmyth · Jul 7, 2014

Not sure what you mean by smearing. Are you using a stiff brush and tapping the paper?

Cheers -

george

pekelnik · Jul 7, 2014

GLSmyth said:
Not sure what you mean by smearing. Are you using a stiff brush and tapping the paper?

Cheers -

george

I am using a shaving brush. Initially I used a hog's hair brush but the only one I managed to find locally shed immense ammount of hairs. When I tap on the paper, ink distributes everywhere in equal amounts, in fact, it's only when I remove it that it forms a image. So essentially, what works is first applying a lot of ink, then brushing it away, potentially after re-wetting the paper once it gets too dry. I think it's now that the little details (precisely long/warm soak, pre-drying in a oven, ... start being important.

cliveh · Jul 7, 2014

A shaving brush is too soft. Try a pastry brush.

GLSmyth · Jul 7, 2014

I use a shaving brush but only after resoaking when I want to very lightly remove ink in a generalized area. I would suggest that it is much too soft. I use Bostick & Sullivan's American Bromoil Brush (http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/home.php?cat=42), as it is relatively inexpensive and, for me, has just the right amount of spring.

Perhaps you are using too much ink. I spread out about a pea's worth which is plenty for an 8x10" print.

Cheers -

george

Xmas · Jul 8, 2014

tile or plastic plate three peas different stiffness... use the stiffness that works... the process is about brush control... use several sizes of print smaller... waste a box of paper before you go big.

M Carter · Jul 15, 2014

GLSmyth said:
I use Bostick & Sullivan's American Bromoil Brush (http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/home.php?cat=42), as it is relatively inexpensive and, for me, has just the right amount of spring.

I'll 2nd that - great brush for your first "real" one. Every similar art or shaving brush I sourced locally shed like a dog with mange. Nightmare cleaning that up. The stickiness of the ink can really pull a brush apart quickly.

Underwoodwj · Sep 14, 2014

Bleaching my photos bleaches the highlights and midtones but not the shadows..

I have read and believe I have followed David Lewis' chemistry formula properly.
I initially thought I could still ink the matrice but the ink (both hard and soft) doesn't take.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

as you can tell, I'm new to the bromoil process

thanks in advance

gandolfi · Sep 14, 2014

PM sent.

Underwoodwj said:
I have read and believe I have followed David Lewis' chemistry formula properly.
I initially thought I could still ink the matrice but the ink (both hard and soft) doesn't take.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

as you can tell, I'm new to the bromoil process

thanks in advance

Bromoil woes

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