Bride wants to keep the negs

[bob100684]

For a friend especially with the arangement you had, give them the negs, along with a short list of recomended labs.

 

[Michael W]

Canada, Australia, and Ireland have all recently passed laws stating that if a photograph is taken for "domestic" purposes (family portrait, wedding, etc.) then the copyright is implicitly held by the purchaser unless explicitly surrendered. I don't think a photographer in Australia is even allowed to request surrender of the copyright. Oh, well.

That is correct about the domestic purposes, however Australian photographers can get the client to assign the copyright back to them. It's a standard clause in most wedding & portrait contracts.

 

[bill schwab]

Having only done a handful of weddings in my life, it is my experience that doing them for friends is a mistake. If I were you, I would hand over the negatives and consider it a lesson learned.

 

[Sirius Glass]

If she paid for the COSTS, this is actually meaning : the film and its technical manipulation plus the paper (prints) and its technical manipulation but NOT the contend added by you exposing the emulsion, thus the WORK. The (intellectual) contend is the added value done by you wile working, and this is what not was paid for.
So, you can keep the contend and give the support (= emulsion) of that contend.
But by printing and giving the pictures, you actually already give the content made on the film, by this you de facto agreed to give the contend to...
And, as in this case, the contend is inseparable from the support, I think that there are (amongst others) two acceptable solutions :
Ore you duplicate the film (= costly) and give her the copy. Ore you scan (= less costly) the (best) images and give the original film bearing the images, to the bride (poor groom...).
And, in any case, write on the edge of each filmstrip your name with a fine permanent marker.
This is how, in sertain cases, it is done over here.

I know, this is a sticky (stinky) business...

Good luck,

Philippe

In the US with software, if you are paid to write the software and your costs are covered you do not own the software rights.

Therefore with that in mind and with the above quote and the previous posts I would recommend:

1. Never take wedding photos, the enjoyment does not match the pain.
2. If you violate #1 have a contract.
3. Scan the film and either:
   1. Keep the film and giver her the CD or
   2. Give her the film marked as stated in the quote and keep the CD
4. DTB and get new friends.

Steve

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Steve- writing software under contract is considered "Work for Hire" under copyright law. Work performed under a work-for-hire agreement automatically becomes the sole property of the person doing the hiring, unless otherwise arranged by contract. Photography services are not generally considered to be Work-for-Hire, unless specifically agreed to in contract. Having ones costs reimbursed for shooting the wedding and producing photos is a bit of a gray area, but not generally construed to be work-for-hire. This is the problem that so many wedding photographers fall into (and portrait photographers to a lesser extent). The customer thinks "I paid for the film and the processing, therefore I own the materials on which the images were made". They do, if you have an agreement stating that they do, or if you do not specify that their payment to you for film, processing and printing is reimbursement of costs. If they hand you the film, you shoot it and hand it back, then they do own it. If you buy the film, shoot the film, process the film and get prints made, and send them a time-and-materials bill, YOU own the film. Of course, in this situation, since we are absent a written or verbal agreement about the nature of the services to be performed and the rights thereto, it is a gray area, but I'd say if it came down to it the decision would go to the photographer, since it sounds like he performed a service and billed it at his cost. He made no profit from it, in fact he incurred a net loss for his unbilled time. Therefore, he owns the negatives and the rights thereto.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Steve- writing software under contract is considered "Work for Hire" under copyright law. Work performed under a work-for-hire agreement automatically becomes the sole property of the person doing the hiring, unless otherwise arranged by contract. Photography services are not generally considered to be Work-for-Hire, unless specifically agreed to in contract. Having ones costs reimbursed for shooting the wedding and producing photos is a bit of a gray area, but not generally construed to be work-for-hire. This is the problem that so many wedding photographers fall into (and portrait photographers to a lesser extent). The customer thinks "I paid for the film and the processing, therefore I own the materials on which the images were made". They do, if you have an agreement stating that they do, or if you do not specify that their payment to you for film, processing and printing is reimbursement of costs. If they hand you the film, you shoot it and hand it back, then they do own it. If you buy the film, shoot the film, process the film and get prints made, and send them a time-and-materials bill, YOU own the film. Of course, in this situation, since we are absent a written or verbal agreement about the nature of the services to be performed and the rights thereto, it is a gray area, but I'd say if it came down to it the decision would go to the photographer, since it sounds like he performed a service and billed it at his cost. He made no profit from it, in fact he incurred a net loss for his unbilled time. Therefore, he owns the negatives and the rights thereto.

I agree. The software example was provided to show how it is handled in other fields. Unfortunately, most people naively think that the "software model" applys universally, which as you properly pointed out in photograpy does not.

Since he was apparently not paid, and the couple were friends [at the time], it is not worth the fight and he should move on. Frankly, given the way he has been treated, not paid and "ordered" to give up the film, I wonder why he would want the negatives or the memories.

Steve

 

[waynecrider]

This should have been a poll.

You did a very nice favor for your friends which I hope they appreciate. If they are good friends that you socialize with often, make the negs a present and ask them to sign a release to allow you to use a couple of the images. I doubt that their intention is to make money off the negs, only to allow them backups if needed and a few small pictures for aunts and uncles which they might not be inclined to ask you for because of the work you have already done. Make sure tho to stamp any further images you do for anyone with your name and maybe business #.

 

[Anscojohn]

Give her the negs, but have the ones you like scanned as a file for your own use later on?
John, Mount Vernon, Virginia USA

 

[pentaxuser]

Without wishing to make a comment on the rights and wrong, it strikes me that most people who had a friend take photos as a favour for cost would look upon ownership of the negs in the same way you would if you asked a bricklayer friend to make you a garden wall for cost as a favour. He'd buy the bricks, sand and cement and give you say six hours of his time to build it. People assume that as they have paid for the material it is theirs. In the case of the wall it is and most people wouldn't see a difference between this and negs for a wedding. Many wouldn't even accept the difference between this kind of building commission and a photo shoot commission but with a pro they might grudgingly accept that he can keep the negs as it is his living and he wants repeat business on prints but as friends they are never likely to understand.

I took a shot of a friend's classic bike for him and gave him a RC print. If he ever wanted the neg for say a print size I couldn't or didn't want to do or to get it printed on FB then as a friend I'd willingly hand it over. That's why he is a friend.

pentaxuser

 

[John Koehrer]

Neal,
Keep this in mind.

"NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED"

If you want to control the use of pics you don't feel are up to snuff you could always use a paper punch to deface them. I don't know if that sets you up for some sort of liability or not.
Like several have mentioned earlier, give 'em the negs & walk away it will be far less draining emotionally than worrying about consequences socially.
Look at the bright side....My friend took my wedding pictures....didn't he do a great job? Or that miserable SOB that took my wedding pictures never gave us the negatives....
Thinking this way may allow you to do weddings in the future( if you still want to) by eliminating the Bad advertising & bad feelings involved.
History suggests she will tell many more people about the bad experience than the good. This is typical of any business

 

[Gary Holliday]

Thinking this way may allow you to do weddings in the future( if you still want to) by eliminating the Bad advertising & bad feelings involved.
History suggests she will tell many more people about the bad experience than the good. This is typical of any business

This is true, but when everyone views the dodgy cheap reprints, it's your reputation as a photographer that will be damaged. I would not allow just anyone to print my photography. Who will hire the photographer who did the dodgy wedding photos?

She wants it done on the cheap, not at MY expense!

Keep the negs at all costs, she will learn the next time.

 

[thebanana]

It would seem that there is no "right" answer. The outcome, whatever choice you make, depends on the strength of the friendship to begin with. Good luck with whatever you decide.

FWIW, you're not the first photographer to fall into the trap of doing a favor for a friend.

 

[Dave Wooten]

You offered to do the prints at cost...so do some really beautiful prints,,,if you can, do a first rate album. Then give her the negs...the whole shebang for a wedding present...you could not ask for a better ad or referral, she will have the lovely prints in hand you did, I think it is worth it in this case for the friendship and the good referrals you might get ,,,, if that is the business you want to get into....you will not get referred if you keep the negs...the couple did not understand this up front and never will...give them a package and let them know what the retail price would have been without your "discount" that is if the quality of work is up to and over and above what the customer sees in wedding photographer galleries locally.

You better give em up...quickly!

 

[copake_ham]

You offered to do the prints at cost...so do some really beautiful prints,,,if you can, do a first rate album. Then give her the negs...the whole shebang for a wedding present...you could not ask for a better ad or referral, she will have the lovely prints in hand you did, I think it is worth it in this case for the friendship and the good referrals you might get ,,,, if that is the business you want to get into....you will not get referred if you keep the negs...the couple did not understand this up front and never will...give them a package and let them know what the retail price would have been without your "discount" that is if the quality of work is up to and over and above what the customer sees in wedding photographer galleries locally.

You better give em up...quickly!

I agree with Dave, as I've earlier recommended you give her the negs.

There's nothing wrong with stressing that her's is an unusual request and contrary to the normal wedding photographer practice but that you value her friendship (and referrals) such that you're willing to break the mold.

When all you have is lemons.....

 

[resummerfield]

…Friends were getting married…

.....I think it is worth it in this case for the friendship ......

If you did the photography for friendship, and you value their friendship, there is only one solution…. Give her the negs.

 

[eddym]

Then the bad bit, she came back looking for 147 prints out of the darkroom and said she would call it the wedding present.

Give her a toaster and say you decided this was a better wedding present than the photos...

 

[eddym]

I never give away negs. Ever. When asked to shoot a wedding for family or friends I explain clearly what it will cost. I will not charge my regular wedding price, but will not do it for cost, either. Weddings are too much work. If asked about the negs, I explain carefully that I take very seriously the responsibility of archiving my clients' negatives in an air conditioned, dehumidified environment, so that, at any point in the future, as long as I live, they will be able to order extra prints of their photos. I explain that doing so is a considerable expense for me, but I do it as a service to my clients.
If they still want the negs, I just say, sorry, no, but I can recommend another photographer if you'd like.
If they won't accept those terms, I turn and run very fast, very far away...

 

[Sparky]

I guess if you're going to keep the negs - then simply tell her "that's like asking a painter to surrender their paint..!"

 

[Fintan]

I wouldnt give away the negs but wouldnt lose a friendship over it either.

On a different point she would be better off if you were to store the negatives, in case anything should happen to their home, she would lose everything.

She should be content with contact sheets and the promise that you will store them for posterity.

 

[phfitz]

Neal,

" Looking for a little counsel."

Too late now. :rolleyes:

"Friends were getting married. Hadn't hired a photographer yet, so I offered to shoot the wedding for film/processing costs and do the prints for their album at cost. They accepted. "

Yes, it's ALL your fault, admit it and move on.

"They paid the money for film and processing. I shot the wedding. They ordered 50 prints or so and I printed them. They're reimbursing me for the cost of making the prints.

Now the bride says she wants the negatives."

Why would you be suprised?

"Certainly not ALL the negatives would I want to be able to print again, but there's probably two or three that mean something to me."

Why? It's not your wedding and I'd bet you will NEVER do another wedding again.

"Any thoughts?"

You asked:

YOU offered to work for free because you're worthless, yes?

If K-Mart prints are all her wedding is worth to the bride, why argue. Hand over the entire package and wash your hands of it, it's not worth the bother OR losing friends over. Do you really want to meet Bride-zillia?

Good luck with it either way.

 

[k_jupiter]

Do you really want to meet Bride-zillia?

Let's keep erotic desire out of the conversation.

tim in san jose

 

[Chan Tran]

I think the mistake you made is that you let them paid for the expense film and processing which isn't much. I shot a few weddings as favor but when I do it as a favor I accept absolutely no money. If I don't feel like doing it I simply refuse. When I did the shoot I made the prints myself and gave them a set as well as some enlargement of those that I like. I made the scan of all the frames and give them the CD. I never give them the negatives.

 

[wfwhitaker]

Oh, man! This is exactly why I don't shoot weddings! The last time I did, it was for "friends" and "at cost". They ended up stiffing me for half the costs. Some friends!

A check cancelling machine worked for Ansel. But if you don't have one handy, just punch the negatives full of holes and let her have them. Make sure to punch the holes where the faces are.

 

[Sirius Glass]

A personal note:
I will not shoot a wedding that I am attending. My girl friend firmly tells the couple that I cannot enjoy the wedding if I am the photographer.

When my oldest daughter got married the photographer wanted too much money to shoot the cutting of the cake. Neither my daughter nor I could blame him because it was 3 or 4 hours later. As a favor to my daughter, I shot the cutting of the cake and about a dozen casual photos of the dinner. Then I put the camera away.

Steve

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I nearly fell in this trap with a friend who had a big family reunion with 37 people wanting a large group shot as well as individual family shots. Both in color and b&w. I was stupid enough to agree to do it for a fixed cost, basically covering my expenses, but not itemized, just a lump. It included my services, film and developing thereof, and scanning of the film to CD.
I told them up-front that they would receive scans of the frames I like, and nothing else, and it worked out pretty well. Nobody asked about the negatives.
In your situation you have a person who does not understand why you would want to keep the negatives. Ignorance is NOT bliss in this circumstance. If the friendship means ANYTHING AT ALL to her, then she will understand after you explain why you want to keep them. Right now you're at a standstill because you don't understand her and she doesn't understand you. Think long and hard why you want to keep them, then tell her. Also ask her why she wants the negatives. Then you'll know each other's reasons and it would be a much better platform to spring from. If she is willing to listen and understand your reasons, perhaps she'll settle for scans of the negatives? You're the one doing them a favor, don't ever forget that. What has she done for you in return?

- Thomas