Bride wants to keep the negs

Dave Wooten · Sep 26, 2007

Don t think she is going to re order from the negs...probably wants control and since no prior agreement was reached, she will never understand why you won t give them up...I personally would not want to keep them and be responsible for the probably petty little orders that might come my way...many photog now give the negs-included in the price-it is not worth the loss of the friendship...they will just scan the prints anyway if you dont give up the negs..

Sparky · Sep 26, 2007

I KNOW... tell her you're an 'artist' and therefore have already destroyed the negs...! BTW - a REAL artist destroys the negs BEFORE the first print...!

walter23 · Sep 26, 2007

aldevo said:
I enjoyed neither shooting experience, btw. I would rather steel wool my eyeballs then shoot another and my hat is certainly off to those intrepid souls who make their living do this...

I agree with everything you have said here. It's a horrid experience. The last one I shot is also my last one ever. Fortunately it was also the most enjoyable - the bride was very positive and a lot of fun to work with. In fact I'm probably going to approach her for some large format portrait practice someday (she's a narcissist too, which helps ).

CRhymer · Sep 26, 2007

Just say bye bye

I am not current on the law in the USA, but I reckon you have a moral right in the work, which may be more important than the copyright. Just be glad you did it at cost and not for free. Work done for free tends to be valued at less-than-zero. Like free advice (self-referential statement alert). It is better to share. Say, giving her a piece of your mind, for'instance.

Cheers,
Clarence

copake_ham · Sep 26, 2007

Oh, BTW, I was recently kind of involved is something like this.

My brother and sister-in-law did one of these marriage vow renewal ceremonies (25th anniversary for them and a chance to do Catholic Church vows they couldn't do back then).

I never asked who was taking the pics. I just showed up with a couple of cameras.

Seems they'd hired some digi-kid photog (who even let his batteries run out during the vow exchange!). I think they're still waiting since last March for his "proofs"!

I shot as the "shadow" - just a family thing.

I sent them the scans on DVD and they loved them. They even had a couple of them printed.

Funny thing is, they never even thought to ask for the negatives! Maybe because they're family? Or maybe because they forgot that I shoot film?

Michael Kadillak · Sep 26, 2007

The lesson here is that when you allow someone elses poor planning to find a photographer get you involved in the solution for whatever reason, you have by default given up any and all control of the process. You are really at risk when you are close friends with the other party by even bringing up the subject.

Hand over the negatives and take your medicine like a man. Next time someone asks you to photograph their wedding, simply smile and say as politely as possible - no thanks. I want to enjoy the ceremony.

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 26, 2007

In the US, unless you have a contract that states otherwise, the copyright remains the property of the photographer. In the absence of any statement regarding copyright transferral, possession of the negatives is construed as possession of copyright.

mgb74 · Sep 26, 2007

First, without some evidence to the contrary, I would not assume that she expects you to have a right to the negs. Sure, that's the typical professional arrangement, but (regardless of the quality of your work) she didn't hire a pro. She asked a friend for a favor.

Personally, if I wasn't in the business to maintain the negatives and sell reprints, I'd be happy to rid myself of the obligation to store them safely. Let them be responsible for loss or damage.

But you'd certainly be within your "rights" to edit and cull any negatives you would not want to have your name associated with (assuming that the one's culled do not have any sentimental value - i.e. Uncle X who has since passed away).

Rob Vinnedge · Sep 26, 2007

Print the images you want ( What?!, you want to save someone's wedding images?), give them the negs, and never do a wedding again!

Mateo · Sep 26, 2007

Mañana, I'll give them to you mañana. No confrontation necessary, just death by procrastination. I do it all the time.

aldevo · Sep 26, 2007

TheFlyingCamera said:
In the US, unless you have a contract that states otherwise, the copyright remains the property of the photographer. In the absence of any statement regarding copyright transferral, possession of the negatives is construed as possession of copyright.

Worth noting, though, that the USA is increasingly alone in this regard.

Canada, Australia, and Ireland have all recently passed laws stating that if a photograph is taken for "domestic" purposes (family portrait, wedding, etc.) then the copyright is implicitly held by the purchaser unless explicitly surrendered. I don't think a photographer in Australia is even allowed to request surrender of the copyright. Oh, well.

In the case of Canada, families have been able to bring suit against photographers who took such pictures years before and have managed to secure the photographer's negatives.

dmr · Sep 27, 2007

... and people wonder why I've always respectfully declined to take on a wedding.

CBG · Sep 27, 2007

The only way I'll do any wedding is if it's for a friend, and if I am not the primary photographer, and if they bear all costs for film and printing, and if I get to use any image I wish in any respectful way I wish, and if I get to just hand them the film after the ceremony, and they are not allowed to pay me.

I don't want the business of shooting for a friend to mess with a friendship, and weddings are about as loaded a situation as possible, so I unload the situation as much as possible, and incedentally, get to enjoy the wedding much more than if I am primarily responsible for images.

C

BradS · Sep 27, 2007

Mateo said:
Mañana, I'll give them to you mañana. No confrontation necessary, just death by procrastination. I do it all the time.

That's excellent!

Philippe-Georges · Sep 27, 2007

If she paid for the COSTS, this is actually meaning : the film and its technical manipulation plus the paper (prints) and its technical manipulation but NOT the contend added by you exposing the emulsion, thus the WORK. The (intellectual) contend is the added value done by you wile working, and this is what not was paid for.
So, you can keep the contend and give the support (= emulsion) of that contend.
But by printing and giving the pictures, you actually already give the content made on the film, by this you de facto agreed to give the contend to...
And, as in this case, the contend is inseparable from the support, I think that there are (amongst others) two acceptable solutions :
Ore you duplicate the film (= costly) and give her the copy. Ore you scan (= less costly) the (best) images and give the original film bearing the images, to the bride (poor groom...).
And, in any case, write on the edge of each filmstrip your name with a fine permanent marker.
This is how, in sertain cases, it is done over here.

I know, this is a sticky (stinky) business...

Good luck,

Philippe

patrickjames · Sep 27, 2007

I have to ask you a few questions. Are you a professional or do you want to shoot weddings for a living? If the answer is no then give them the film. I shoot weddings and frankly don't want to keep negatives or digital files around in case someone wants a reprint. I put the costs in up front and wish them a merry life. You agreed to shoot a wedding for a friend, and there is no financial or moral gain for you if you keep the negs. You might have already put the relationship in the pooper by getting all high and mighty in their eyes. Do you want to take the high ground or do you want to have them as friends? That is your real question.

Patrick

k_jupiter · Sep 27, 2007

I disagree with most of these responses.

Give her the negs. The money you make isn't worth the cost of the relationship. Put it all in the context of your life. It don't mean crap.

It's a wedding present to them.

The photos you want. Any award winners? Any that you want for your portfolio? Take em, give her the negatives.

I hired the 1986 Rhode Island Photographer of the year for my wedding as a last second replacement for a friend who flaked on me. Cost me 500 1987 bucks plus travel expenses to New Jersey. After the ceremony and reception, he handed me a dozen rolls of film. So your wedding gift cost the equivalent of 500 1987 bucks.
Or...

you screw this relationship.

Your choice.

tim in san jose

Sparky · Sep 27, 2007

Yeah- I guess thinking about it THAT way - esp Patrick's argument - that makes a lot of sense. I'm convinced.

Kevin Caulfield · Sep 27, 2007

It's the principle that matters. Keep the negs. They are your property. She has no right to demand them.

SoulSurround · Sep 27, 2007

aldevo said:
I enjoyed neither shooting experience, btw. I would rather steel wool my eyeballs then shoot another and my hat is certainly off to those intrepid souls who make their living do this...

This is one of the funniest threads ever! Tears in my eyes from laughing:
* BTW - a REAL artist destroys the negs BEFORE the first print...!
* Print the images you want ( What?!, you want to save someone's wedding images?), give them the negs, and never do a wedding again!
* Mañana, I'll give them to you mañana. No confrontation necessary, just death by procrastination. I do it all the time.

But I guess the real lesson to be learnt - when "models" are involved - is to always clearly specify everything beforehand.

Marcust101 · Sep 27, 2007

I'm in the middle of a similar experience except the Bride could classed as a friend of my girlfirend.

Now I've taken wedding shots in a reportage style at friends weddings and given them any prints I liked but always on my own initiative

Anyway, I arrived at the wedding in germany to a request that I take a few pictures of the wedding, I had a leica with me, a 2 lenses, and a 5 rolls of B&W, the sort of stuff i usually take. I had intended to and said thats what I'd be doing.

First thing the next morning she shows up at the room and hands me a list of the places i'm going to be for the day and who i'm photographing, it was a long list.

To make a long story short, I had to send someone for more film and spent the entire day til 9pm taking pictures in a filthy mood. Needless to say the pictures sucked to my eyes but she was happy with the contacts and went away to look at them.

Then the bad bit, she came back looking for 147 prints out of the darkroom and said she would call it the wedding present. After much angst and 6 months of strained conversations with the girlfriend who is supportive but stuck in the middle, I've had the negs scanned and intend to give her the lot, CD's, negs & contacts and never get involved in a wedding again regardless of how pushy the bride may be.

This will probably ruin the relationship and at this point I don't care, she has been very manipulative from the start. Incidentally she had a Wedding Photog as well.

You're right I should have said no at the start and will always from now on.

Never again
Marcus

MikeSeb · Sep 27, 2007

No good deed goes unpunished?

What are the real issues here? Perhaps a candid discussion among all the parties is in order.

Does the bride want to take the negatives elsewhere to have them printed more cheaply / larger / better? (Hard to see how she can beat at-cost printing; and I'd not want someone else printing something going out over my name.)

Does she believe that she's "entitled" to them somehow? (School her gently in copyright.) Is she afraid of losing access to them in the future? (Assure her that if you get out of the photo business you'll give her the negs; or give her dupes; you might ask her also if she has the ability/inclination to catalog and store them properly.)

People tend not to value that which costs them less than it's worth. You have done a good deed, and now may suffer the consequences. (I know, i do this sort of thing all the time, to my disadvantage.)

And further, I agree with those who advise you to tell the couple you intend to use whichever images you want in your portfolio, on your website, etc, regardless what you decide to do about the negatives.

Antje · Sep 27, 2007

Marcust101 said:
I'm in the middle of a similar experience except the Bride could classed as a friend of my girlfirend.

...

Oh my. That's about the most terrible wedding story I've ever heard. Would have been fun (sort of) to send her the invoice first (let's say, well, EUR 2.500) and then call it a wedding present later.

Some people just don't know how much work that is.

Antje

DKT · Sep 27, 2007

wilsonneal said:
As for why she wants the negs, she wants to take them to CVS Drugstore for cheap reprints, because I'm too expensive.
>>>>> This 'trying to cover my costs' thing is just a losing battle.
N

that's the problem--if you're competing against CVS as "cost", then you'll never win. Unless you make it clear up front that your "cost" will be more--and you can explain why, better quality, etc--but you needed to do that up front.

I'm not a wedding photographer, but everyone who works as a photographer gets asked to shoot weddings. I generally don't do them, but I have done a couple. I learned to make it very clear (in writing--with shot lists etc) what I was going to do, and if I felt uncomfortable I made it clear up front. I've shot enough events and cocktail parties in my life to know that things don't always transpire on the ground as they do when you talk about them beforehand--so CYA. I gave negs away--but i was paid for it by charging higher up front. My "cost" for a print was $50 for a toned 8x10 (I would charge half that for a non-toned print, but explained the process time and the longevity issues). MY "cost" for RA4 print was 200% the lab fee. My film costs were 200% as well. I charged for gas, time, etc, everything was billed. When you talk "cost" you have to do it this way as an individual--the actual cost is more than materials. If you try to do it on material costs alone, you'll only lose in the end.

I would probably give them the negs and chalk it up as a lesson learned, something to avoid in the future. But that's just me--why I don't do weddings as a rule.

removed account4 · Sep 27, 2007

k_jupiter said:
I disagree with most of these responses.

Give her the negs. The money you make isn't worth the cost of the relationship. Put it all in the context of your life. It don't mean crap.

It's a wedding present to them.

The photos you want. Any award winners? Any that you want for your portfolio? Take em, give her the negatives.

I hired the 1986 Rhode Island Photographer of the year for my wedding as a last second replacement for a friend who flaked on me. Cost me 500 1987 bucks plus travel expenses to New Jersey. After the ceremony and reception, he handed me a dozen rolls of film. So your wedding gift cost the equivalent of 500 1987 bucks.
Or...

you screw this relationship.

Your choice.

tim in san jose

took the words out of my mouth ...

thanks tim, couldn't have said it better ...
john

Bride wants to keep the negs

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