bought "antique 5x7 Wood&Brass Plate Field Camera"- what is it??

[TheToadMen]

Hi all,
I bought this 5x7" wooden plate camera and it will be shipped shortly to me. I'm gonna use it to make negatives for contactact printing (Salt, Albumen and Carbon printing). It comes with an old lens (I've got other suitable lenses) and one plate holder.

I'm not familiair with old wooden plate cameras. So could someone please help me with this one?
- what brand or type is it?
- How old could it be?
- Any other things I should know?
- Will it be possible to fit modern plate holders as wel?
Thanks,
Bert from Holland

Description and photo of the seller:

camera:
5x7" camera, tailboard type, square corners bellows, crank handle at the rear for focusing;
no makers name (looks to be an English design), it seems to be from 1880's

good condition

brown leather bellows, fully light tight
back panel have vertical and horizontal swing movements
reversing back
lens panel allows some vertical and horizontal movements

total weight: 1.950Kg (camera + lens + plate holder)
length (w/ max. extension lens and bellows): 53cm (about 21 inches)
size (folded): 24 x 24 x 14cm

lens:
engravings: Marion Cie
landscape type (achromat, 2 elements, 1 groups, fixed diaphragm on the front), his focal length seems to be about 165mm
it allows to be moved front or back in order to achieve an accurate focusing
diaphragm seems to be about f/20 (so image on focusing screen is slightly dark)
glasses: clean and clear

plate holder:
some wear, still in good condition

 

[TheToadMen]

Some more info I've received:

"It is a 5x7 inches wood and brass camera, most probably made in England (all European cameras were made with formats in centimeters)."

"Lens is engraving "Marion", due it seems to be the original lens of this camera, I also assume that camera was made for the English maker Marion (Soho Square, London), in business from 1840s, as an offshoot of the firm Auguste Marion of Paris."

 

[Nodda Duma]

That is a fine looking camera, regardless of who made it!

 

[TheToadMen]

That is a fine looking camera, regardless of who made it!

It sure is. That's why I bought it in the first place - and to you use it for making negatives for alt-photo processes
But I'm always curious to the history behind a camera as well ...

 

[removed account4]

hi bert
here is some info on the maker auguste marion and the cameras his company made

http://historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/librariumadmin/pm.cgi?action=app_display&app=datasheet&app_id=2442
http://historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/librarium2/pm.cgi?action=app_display&app=datasheet&app_id=2491

i tried to look through the list but couldn't find yours, or what looked like it might have been yours...
maybe you will have better luck ?
have fun, great camera !

 

[Ian Grant]

That's a lovely looking camera

It's very definitely not British, it's actually a Reisekamera, styles varied slightly, most are German but they were also made in France, Italy and other European countries. The tell-tale signs are the way it extends, locks etc, & folds. also the rear itlt.

Mine (an 18x24) will in fact extend again, as yours does, I've no photo of the underside but it should be self evident.

It's not 7x5 that format was never made in the UK or Europe, in the UK we always had Half plate, it's actually a 13x18cm camera which is the standard continental equivalent of Half plate and 7x5. Film is available from Fomafoto.com or Fotoimpex.

I've seen Marion lenses on French Reiskameras. while we mostly know Marion & Co as a British Company their early roots were in France. They were mainly wholesalers and distributors but sold many products under their own name. They may well have had financial interests in some other company's like Kershaw, the Soho Reflex was sold as a Marion Soho Reflex, a Kershaw Soho Reflex and later as an APM Soho Reflex.

Ian

 

[TheToadMen]

Hi jnanian,
Thanks for this site. It was a nice read, but I didn't find the camera either.
It's also possible that only the lans came from "Marion Cie" and the camera body is from a third party?
Not uncommon in those days...

 

[TheToadMen]

Hi Ian,
That sounds very plausible. Isn't "Reisekamera" the german word for "Field camera"?

 

[Ian Grant]

Hi Ian,
That sounds very plausible. Isn't "Reisekamera" the German word for "Field camera"?

Not quite it translates as travel camera, they don't have the movements of a field camera and are equivalent to a British Tail board camera, the US went somewhere in-between with their cameras.

"Reisekamera" is used to describe these German style portable camera and their predominant unique system of extending and folding. Not all Reiskameras use these sliding parts but the vast majority do.

I'd suggest your camera is almost certainly French and fairly early. it may well be worth searching for Marion & Cie cameras online. I have no French resources

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

A bit more info, the lens is thought to have possibly been made by Darlot for Marion, it may well be a approx 6" (150mm) with a fixed again approx f22 aperture, and would date the camera to the early to mid 1880's.

I'm 100% certain it's not British like the sellers listing states

Ian

 

[TheToadMen]

A bit more info, the lens is thought to have possibly been made by Darlot for Marion, it may well be a approx 6" (150mm) with a fixed again approx f22 aperture, and would date the camera to the early to mid 1880's.

I'm 100% certain it's not British like the sellers listing states

Ian

Thanks again.
And the "early to mid 1880's" was a wonderful time in the photography time line.
So it would be nice to use a camera from that area for my alt-photo negatives.

And I'll search for more about "Marion & Cie" and the French connection. From the site that jnanian mentioned (post #5):

"The firm of Augustin Marion was established in the mid 1830's by Claude Mames Augustin Marion selling fine French stationary. (...) In approximately 1842 a branch of the firm was established at 19 Mortimer St. London, selling fine stationary and fancy goods imported from France. In 1846 The firm moved to 152 Regent St. London and the business name was changed to include "and company" which implies that the business was flourishing and expanding. (...) By, 1857 the firm was credited with introducing Carte-de-visite to great Britain. (...) In 1863 the company name was changed to Auguste Marion, Son & Co."​

So it still might be a French made camera transported to & sold in England. And if the website is right, this camera (or the lens) could possibly be dated between 1842 and 1863 (for now) - due to the change in the name of the company.

 

[TheToadMen]

I thought of another thing. If it's named "Marion & Cie" instead of "Marion & Co", wouldn't that also suggest a French name instead of an English name, thus referring to the Paris based company, not the London based?

 

[Ian Grant]

The 1880's date is based on the lens which is a fixed aperture landscape lens possibly made for Marion by Darlot (it can be seen on some other early Marion cameras) as well as the fact that Marion & Co (in London) were importers of stationery - specialising in photo mounts and cards - and didn't begin selling cameras (with their name on) until 1880, initially these were imported from France.

Again the 1880 date is important because Dry plates didn't become commercially available until 1879. The 13x18cm plate size suggests it's closer to 1880 because by about 1885 Marion & Co were selling cameras which still look to be french made with Half plate backs in the UK. Marion were an importer not manufacturer at that time.

Ian