Borax refuses to go into solution in D76

[Kino]

I don't get it. Used the very same chemicals, recipe and temperature water when I mixed the last batch of D76.

No problems.

Now, the last ingredient, borax, just glitters like broken glass and swirls around; even after 15 minutes on the magnetic stirrer.

So I placed the two 1 liter mixes into brown glass bottles, submersed them in a 120F degree water bath and covered them with towels to 'age" overnight. Maybe that will do the trick...

Guess in the future, I will pre-dissolve the borax in about 1/2 a cup of boiling water to make sure it dissolves.

 

[xkaes]

That's pretty odd. Is it a new "can" of borax -- or are any of the other ingredients new?

 

[dynachrome]

I would just let it sit overnight without bothering to heat it up again. If a few grains are still left by the next day I would pour it all through a coffee filter, rinse out the bottle and pour the stuff back in.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I don't get it. Used the very same chemicals, recipe and temperature water when I mixed the last batch of D76.

No problems.

Now, the last ingredient, borax, just glitters like broken glass and swirls around; even after 15 minutes on the magnetic stirrer.

So I placed the two 1 liter mixes into brown glass bottles, submersed them in a 120F degree water bath and covered them with towels to 'age" overnight. Maybe that will do the trick...

Guess in the future, I will pre-dissolve the borax in about 1/2 a cup of boiling water to make sure it dissolves.

good idea!

 

[bluechromis]

The borax that I get comes in a granular form. In that form, it is slow to dissolve in unheated solutions and organic solvents, but it does dissolve eventually. I use a coffee grinder to pulverize it to fine powder. It dissolves much faster that way.

 

[Kino]

That's pretty odd. Is it a new "can" of borax -- or are any of the other ingredients new?

No, all are "old"; the same jar I used the last time. I take great pains to open them very briefly and seal them back quickly. No clumps; pours freely...

I would just let it sit overnight without bothering to heat it up again. If a few grains are still left by the next day I would pour it all through a coffee filter, rinse out the bottle and pour the stuff back in.

Yes, that's about all I can do. I am just mystified...

The borax that I get comes in a granular form. In that form, it is slow to dissolve in unheated solutions and organic solvents, but it does dissolve eventually. I use a coffee grinder to pulverize it to fine powder. It dissolves much faster that way.

Yes, mine is granular, but it's never been a problem. The coffee grinder idea is a good one; thanks!

 

[Kino]

Just went down and checked it again; it did NOT improve.

Only 2 grams per liter in the formula and at least half or more has not dissolved.

Wondering if I should just dump these two liters and start again; cheaper than ruining three rolls of film I have waiting...

 

[Don_ih]

Strain your developer and see exactly how much borax didn't dissolve. Most of it probably did. You can also shoot a test and see if the developer works as it should. You can also add a gram of borax - it won't change much.

 

[koraks]

Guess in the future, I will pre-dissolve the borax in about 1/2 a cup of boiling water to make sure it dissolves.

That's what I do when using borax. Works every time. It tends to be slow to dissolve and adding it last may make this worse, so I always start with the borax.

 

[pentaxuser]

Your problem made me recall that John Finch had a video on making Sodium Metaborate which consisted of dissolving borax in water prior to adding Sodium Hydroxide. He was able to dissolve it in a few moments in warm water

What he did say was that warm only ( temp not specified but short of hot and seemingly way short of boiling ) was required but it was 300ml of water which is quite a lot and 7g of borax. Maybe your amounts are a lot different

My take from it was that as long as the water is warm, say 45-50C it is the quantity of water that may play a bigger part in the dissolving process than temp or it may be that the higher the temp used a lesser amount of water is required?

pentaxuser

 

[xkaes]

A lot depends on the concentration of the formula you are creating (stock vs diluted for use), and the amount of water you are using. I rarely make stock solutions. For example, when I mix a quart D-76, I'm starting with almost a quart of water, and the 1 gram of borax goes in last. That's a very small amount of borax into a large amount of water. Never had a problem -- even with room temperature water.

But, if I were putting in a large amount of borax into a small amount of water to get a concentrated stock, I probably would have a problem.

 

[koraks]

as long as the water is warm, say 45-50C it is the quantity of water that may play a bigger part in the dissolving process than temp

My experience is the opposite. Borax will readily dissolve in a very shallow layer of water provided the water is hot (50C being a lower limit when I do this). This is also reflected in solubility data for borax, which shows two things: (1) its solubility in water is really quite limited, but (2) it increases dramatically as water temperature increases.

Here's a useful link about it: https://www.sciencemadness.org/smwiki/index.php/Borax
Note this chart:

I think I have read years ago something about how the presence of other compounds in a solution affects the ease with which borax will dissolve, which is why I always dissolve the borax first. But I'm not sure about this, let alone where I might have read it (apart that it was "online somewhere", probably a forum).

 

[pentaxuser]

My take from it was that as long as the water is warm, say 45-50C it is the quantity of water that may play a bigger part in the dissolving process than temp or it may be that the higher the temp used a lesser amount of water is required?

koraks, thanks for #12 which seems to confirm what I wondered might be the answer as I stated above. My whole post was simply to relay what had been said by John Finch and then wonder if there might be an explanation that reconciled that with the need for nearly boiling water if the amount of water vis a vis the amount of borax was much smaller .

What seems clear to me from your experience and graph is that if borax isn't harmed by water that's nearly at boiling point then dissolving it in that is the sensible thing to do. Why bother with the waiting involved in any alternative methods

John Finch's experience was governed by what he was doing, namely making sodium metaborate "on the spot" using both borax and sodium hydroxide

My experience is governed by the fact that I have never attempted either what Kino was doing nor what John Finch was doing but I thought it worthwhile mentioning what worked for John Finch in terms of making sodium metaborate using borax

pentaxuser

 

[koraks]

if borax isn't harmed by water that's nearly at boiling point

No, it's not; it's perfectly safe. Borax is stable to temperatures far beyond the boiling point of water.
If the developing agents are a concern (but really, they're not quite as sensitive as some people fear), don't worry about this either: simply dissolve the borax in a little very hot water, then add cold water to bring the temperature down before solving the additional ingredients.

I thought it worthwhile mentioning

Yes, much appreciated; you have an admirable memory for these things.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Just went down and checked it again; it did NOT improve.

Only 2 grams per liter in the formula and at least half or more has not dissolved.

Wondering if I should just dump these two liters and start again; cheaper than ruining three rolls of film I have waiting...

as somebody mentioned already... keep stirring. It will dissolve eventually. With the magneticstirrer, it takes me about 30m on a low setting. As long as it is moving, it will resolve but, don't be surprised if some falls out of solution again after cooling. a simple shake will get it back into solution.

 

[xkaes]

as somebody mentioned already... keep stirring. It will dissolve eventually. With the magneticstirrer, it takes me about 30m on a low setting. As long as it is moving, it will resolve but, don't be surprised if some falls out of solution again after cooling. a simple shake will get it back into solution.

I use a magnetic stirrer as well -- on medium -- but at most it only takes 3 minutes to get the 1 gr of borax to dissolve in a quart of working developer -- and I'm talking room temp. I always use distilled water. Perhaps that makes a difference????

 

[Kino]

I went ahead and screened out what little undissolved Borax remained and processed the three rolls of film.

There appeared to be no detrimental effect to developer strength; in fact, it was a bit more energetic than I had hoped.

That or Sunny 16 needs to be Sunny 22 now.

In any regard, it works but I will be dissolving the Borax in very hot water the next time.

Thanks for everyone's input.