Borax of the Mules

[jsmithphoto1]

Hello, all!

After long consideration, I've wondered for a while now is 20 Mule Team borax safe to use in chemistry? I've used it with all my "home brew" chemistry and I haven't >noticed< any negative effects. The developers process nicely and creates wonderful blacks and highlights on both film and paper.

So, am I doing myself a disservice mixing chemistry by the Kodak book using home cleaning agents, such as 20 Mule Team and Arm & Hammer Washing Soda? Also, let's talk specifics. What is the difference in "-hydrates" between one chemical and the other? Such as crystal, decahydrate, monohydrate, andhydrous... This would be a great resource for a beginner with these questions!

PS... I know what the "-hydrates" are But let's rack brains and have fun with it!

 

[Harry Stevens]

All I know about Borax is the E.U banned it for public sale because it suppose to effect male fertility.

 

[M. Axel Wikstrom]

I don't think you're hurting anything by using those. As long as the basic chemistry is the same it's the same stuff, and borax is borax is sodium borate is sodium tetraborate, or disodium tetra borate.

In terms of hydrates the terms you mentioned are simply how many water molecules are associated/attached to each molecule of the chemical in question. Books like "The Darkroom Cookbook" will answer most of your questions.

 

[Lachlan Young]

All I know about Borax is the E.U banned it for public sale because it suppose to effect male fertility.

No. There have been changes to labelling requirements, which caused some manufacturers to have to change their packaging. There is ongoing debate over how damaging it is at real-world exposure levels. You can buy it from Silverprint with no problems. It's not like Dichromates which are a very serious health hazard.

 

[DREW WILEY]

In the US, borates are considered so safe that they're used as fire retardants on structural wood, and also for mold and rot control, without warnings or restrictions, although for a long time the exterminator industry attempted to keep these products from public sale, simply because they are so
darn cheap, and very easy and safe use to. As far as eating or drinking the stuff, well, anyone who has camped at Stovepipe Wells in Death Valley
knows that taste. When hiking in desert, one learns to gently sip water from such springs and not chug it. It is a bit laxative. Death Valley Scotty had
his health rescued by moving to Death Valley, so I guess the water was a lot safer than drinking Mountain Dew.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Take it from a chemist that borates are quite safe to use in photochemistry. I have used them in mixing D-76 and other formulas. So safe in fact that they can be used as a safe insecticide in the home with children and pets. Curiously borates are damaging to citrus trees.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Safe yes, but bad for Citrus trees! Kodak was reluctant to use them due to that problem in Florida and California.

PE

 

[jsmithphoto1]

This rabbit trail has some quite interesting comments!

 

[DREW WILEY]

Lots of things can be bad for citrus groves. My grandfather got suckered into purchasing 22 unvisited acres of Southern Calif as an alleged orange grove investment. That was around 1910. But absolutely NOTHING would grow there except a bit of creosote bush. Then he got TB and was dying, so
stopped paying property taxes on it, and it went back to govt ownership. In 1917 they struck oil there... well, not just a bit of oil. It was named Signal
Hill - the US Naval Oil Reserves, and probably the most valuable real estate in the country! If that was still in the family I could probably buy Kodak
with pocket change and remake any film I wished! Alas, the only oil I own now is what gets drained from the engine crankcase.

 

[john_s]

On the subject of purity, there used to be "photographic grade" basic chemicals that were not particularly pure. They were fine for general photographic purposes, but probably not good enough for some specialized uses (e.g. ascorbate developers, liquid developers designed for very long shelf life).

 

[Harry Stevens]

I remember as a kid my parents used a ant killer and the words "contains borax" written large on the tube.

 

[dpurdy]

We are plagued with black ants in our house. Or we were. Mix a little borax with sugar and water and put it out for them and a day or two later the entire colony will be dead.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Just don't confuse it with boric acid. That kills ants even better, but potentially also your pets.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Search APUG for endless threads discussing whether or not to use Borax including real and imagined advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Alan Johnson]

20 mule team borax is the decahydrate:
https://www.omsi.edu/sites/all/FTP/files/kids/Borax-msds.pdf
Arm & Hammer washing soda is close to the monohydrate but apparently not guaranteed exactly that:
https://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=brands&id=3005022

 

[juan]

I've used both 20 Mule Team borax and Arm & Hammer Washing Soda for about 15-years. They seem to work reliably in the developers I've tried. As always, make tests.

 

[Ian Grant]

I used to buy 2 or 3 metric tons of 20 Mule Team Borax at a time direct from from Consolidated Borax, on pallets, I'd use some of it for photographic use.

Here in the UK it's sold in hardware stores, no restrictions, I was offered some last week when buying Washing Soda.

Ian

 

[Harry Stevens]

Here in the UK it's sold in hardware stores, no restrictions

Well here is what I get told...

Borax can only be sold to Business, Trade or Professional customers. Please only add to your basket if you can demonstrate you are using this in a business or professional capacity. Each order is checked and could be cancelled if we suspect it to be for personal use.

They use to sell it in Boots and Wilkinsons but they stopped selling it, I enquired and they blamed the E.U regulations for it's removal.......The red is a quote from a UK seller I just googled even on Amazon UK they only list a Borax substitute .............I am confused.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

And people wonder why Brexit passed!

 

[jsmithphoto1]

Wow. You can buy borax ANYWHERE here in the States... WalMart, Sams, grocery stores, certain dollar stores, et cetera. Also, in the States, you can live up north and still have to pay a water bill for poisoned water. "Leaded water: It still costs us money to poison you."

 

[DREW WILEY]

Boraxo is in the soap dispensers in the bathrooms here. It's the only soap that was used in schools where I grew up. But we also sell borax products
for both fireproofing wood and termite prevention. Since it's water-soluble, it's only long-term effective where it can't wash off from rain. No worries
in the US, unless you happen to live above shale geology, in which case water itself is something to be scared of, once the frackers have poisoned it!

 

[Lachlan Young]

Well here is what I get told...

Borax can only be sold to Business, Trade or Professional customers. Please only add to your basket if you can demonstrate you are using this in a business or professional capacity. Each order is checked and could be cancelled if we suspect it to be for personal use.

Which retailer? Some chemical suppliers (Sigma Aldrich for example) simply won't sell to anyone who doesn't count as 'Business, trade or professional'. You might want to look under Sodium Tetraborate too.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Dead Link Removed
Its quite easy to buy online but the elite European Commission thinks the general populace are too stupid to be allowed it in pharmacies.

 

[jim appleyard]

I use the 20 Mule Team stuff w/o problems, but do a search here for a very long and entertaining thread on borax (called "Mule Crap") and you'll see many hairs being split.

From what I gather, 20 MT is NOT the purest grade of borax you can get, but use what works for you.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I think there's a misunderstanding here. Primary chemical suppliers typically sell to distributors, not end users. It a marketing issue. Then it's up to
specific distributors to monitor legal compliance or potential restrictions. Of course, you can simply drive to Death Valley or numerous other dry desert lakebeds and scoop up all the borax you want. If you're lucky, you might get some mummified mule poop mixed in with it too.