Borax, again

[eclarke]

During the Borax thread, I expressed an interest in making a concentrate of Borax because of insolubility when making D76. I was told I only need a spoon and it should dissolve easily. I have 5 pounds of Formulary Borax and have tried dissolving this stuff at different temperatures in different kinds of water and it is EXTREMELY stubborn. I use a new Corning heated magnetic stirrer which can boil 4 liters of water if needed and it takes about an hour for the Borax to dissolve when making D76 at 125-150 degrees. What are the conditions which can make Borax insoluble?...Evan Clarke

 

[PhotoJim]

Is your borax a free-flowing powder?

I have no issues dissolving mine. I mix up my D-76 at about 50 degrees or so, a litre or two at a time, and the borax dissolves fairly readily. You do stir in one ingredient at a time, in the order of the formula, I assume.

 

[eclarke]

Is your borax a free-flowing powder?

I have no issues dissolving mine. I mix up my D-76 at about 50 degrees or so, a litre or two at a time, and the borax dissolves fairly readily. You do stir in one ingredient at a time, in the order of the formula, I assume.

It's free flowing but fine crystals. I do mix correctly but the stuff is from Formulary and the only type they offer so should not be unusual. I have tried it in distilled, filtered and tap water at various temperatures. I have ground it finer in a mortar. It makes me crazy!!..EC

 

[PhotoJim]

I got mine from the Formulary too, but many years ago. I don't have ready access to my darkroom (it's at my mother-in-law's home) but I certainly have no issue with dissolving.

Why not buy a small box of borax at a grocery store (it's sold as a laundry additive) and see how it goes with that? It could be that your batch has been contaminated somehow.

 

[H. James Wolf]

How long have you had the borax? Last year, Formulary was having this problem with some of its borax and replaced it at no cost for those of us who had the hard-dissolving kind.

 

[eclarke]

How long have you had the borax? Last year, Formulary was having this problem with some of its borax and replaced it at no cost for those of us who had the hard-dissolving kind.

Thanks, I think you have nailed it, at least there is such a thing as stubborn Borax..Evan Clarke

 

[dancqu]

Making a Concentrate?

During the Borax thread, I expressed an interest in making
a concentrate of Borax because of insolubility when
making D76. Evan Clarke

A concentrate? Borax is only a little soluble; about 5 to 6 grams
per liter. That's well over the amount needed for a liter of D-76
but not much of a concentrate. Dan

 

[H2O]

...about 5 to 6 grams per liter...

Ten times more (per liter), at about 20 °C to 25 °C
I agree, it isn't so much

 

[eclarke]

A concentrate? Borax is only a little soluble; about 5 to 6 grams
per liter. That's well over the amount needed for a liter of D-76
but not much of a concentrate. Dan

Gainer or somebody was talking about Borax in Tea or Ethylene Glycol and achieving better solubility. It turns out my Borax is what the poster above described, crystalline and insoluble. My neighbor has Borax he bought from Formulary since and it is more of a powder and dissolves instantly. 2 grams per liter should be no problem in any case..Thanks all...Evan Clarke

 

[gainer]

Saturated borax solutions

IIRC, the solubility of borax in water at 20 C is only 4.7 grams/liter.

 

[Christopher Walrath]

From the "Dictionary of Photography" printed in England 1943.

Solubility of crystals: 3 per cent in cold, 98 percent in hot water; very little soluable in alcohol, 60 per cent in glycerine.

 

[gainer]

Saturated borax solutions.

The attached chart should help.

 

[Christopher Walrath]

Think you deleted the chart, gainer.

 

[eclarke]

I should send everybody some of this stuff..it's maddening. I got somr grocery store stuff tonight and it dissolves rapidly..EC

 

[RalphLambrecht]

IIRC, the solubility of borax in water at 20 C is only 4.7 grams/liter.

Patrick

Are graphs such as this available for other hard-to-dissolve chemicals?

 

[gainer]

Think you deleted the chart, gainer.

I found it in my post at the end of page 1.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

IIRC, the solubility of borax in water at 20 C is only 4.7 grams/liter.

Pat - take a closer look of the graph you posted and check the units on it. While the temp on the x-axis is in degrees Farhenheit, the solubility on the y-axis is given in %w/v. And that's the same as grams/100 ml which equals 10xgrams/liter.

So according to your graph, it should be about 47 grams/liter at 20C...

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Patrick

Are graphs such as this available for other hard-to-dissolve chemicals?

Not graphs, but usually solubility at 0C, 20C, and 100C, CRC Handbooks of Chemistry and Physics or even Lange's Handbook of Chemistry. I prefer the older CRC Handbooks from before 1960 or so where they are truely handbooks instead of huge deskbooks. You don't need all the X-ray crystallography data and other stuff from the newer (post 1960) books. I have a 32nd edition from the 50s that I like. They often have tables of more common inroganic chemicals with solubility vs. temp. But not photo specific...

 

[Nokton48]

Twenty Mule Team from the supermarket is what I use, with no problems whatsoever.

 

[Murray Kelly]

Patrick - (welcome back!) - you misread the ordinate. It is 4.7g percent or 47g/L as you so well described in your Borax article.
Evan, I haven't tried it but Boric acid is terrible slow to dissolve so I've read. Maybe they screwed up the labels?
Murray

IIRC, the solubility of borax in water at 20 C is only 4.7 grams/liter.

 

[dancqu]

That Is Correct

Ten times more (per liter), at about 20 °C to 25 °C
I agree, it isn't so much

I and likely Mr. Gainer had percentage in mind. Dan

 

[Anon Ymous]

...Evan, I haven't tried it but Boric acid is terrible slow to dissolve so I've read. Maybe they screwed up the labels?
Murray

That depends. Crystalline boric acid is quite easy to dissolve, but fine powder is the exact opposite. I don't know if and which form is hydrated though.

 

[eclarke]

Patrick - (welcome back!) - you misread the ordinate. It is 4.7g percent or 47g/L as you so well described in your Borax article.
Evan, I haven't tried it but Boric acid is terrible slow to dissolve so I've read. Maybe they screwed up the labels?
Murray

The D76 is spot on once I finally get the stuff into solution and I have Boric Acid which is still different. I have emailed Formulary about this question and will order some new stuff today, I am uncomfortable with the grocery store stuff I got last night...Evan

 

[Formulary/Bud Wilson]

Borax replacement

We still have the standing offer of replacing any of the "Stubborn Borax", that anybody has and would like a replacement for. Just call 800-922-5255 and ask..
Our apologies for this episode. Please keep in mind we don't manufacture the product we only repackage it. But QC is QC. it should not have got out of here. Out of our 33 years this hasn't happened many times.
If it is an issue please let us replace it.

Thanxs
Bud

 

[eclarke]

We still have the standing offer of replacing any of the "Stubborn Borax", that anybody has and would like a replacement for. Just call 800-922-5255 and ask..
Our apologies for this episode. Please keep in mind we don't manufacture the product we only repackage it. But QC is QC. it should not have got out of here. Out of our 33 years this hasn't happened many times.
If it is an issue please let us replace it.

Thanxs
Bud

Thanks Bud, I just got an email from Sherry and have arranged the replacement. Great customer service...Evan Clarke