bokeh

Ed_Davor · Apr 29, 2006

Hi

this is not limited to 35mm photography but I can't see a separate forum for lenses, so I'll post here, but it's NOT tied to 35mm

Anyway, as far as I know, there are two kinds of distortions from "correct" bokeh, which is supose to be when lights make uniform circles..
One is when you get regular smooth blur where light sources are stronger in the middle and fade towards edges of the circle.
The other is reversal of this, when the light sources appear weak in the middle.

so I have a few questions about that:

Can someone show me an example of the third kind of bokeh (the one where you get lights with dim centers, the "negative" bokeh)?
And also, I'd like to ask you people, which do you prefer of these 3 types of bohek yourself and why?

elekm · Apr 29, 2006

Ed_Davor said:
... the third kind of bokeh -- the one where you get lights with dim centers, the "negative" bokeh

I think I experienced this once after several shots of tequila.

narsuitus · Apr 29, 2006

Ed,

I dont understand the difference between your second and third examples. They seem the same to me.

Where does the donut hole bokeh that is formed by mirror lenses fit among your three examples?

Do you have published references for the three types of bokeh you listed? I would like to obtain some additional information.

Ed_Davor · Apr 29, 2006

One is when you get regular smooth blur where light sources are stronger in the middle and fade towards edges of the circle.
The other is reversal of this, when the light sources appear weak in the middle.

this is the second and the third...

the third is like when you invert the second

but anyway, I'm the one trying to learn something here, so you tell me

what is donut hole bohek?

here are the examples of the 3 boheks I was talking about, not in the same order though, the one I'm interested in is the first one in the list on that site (the one with the hole in the middle of the object trace)

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/bokeh.htm

Ole · Apr 29, 2006

The "bright edge bokeh" is a result of overcorrected spherical aberration. It's very common in the foreground blur from long telephoto lenses, since these tent t be designed for smooth blurry backgrounds.

"Bright center" is undercorrected spherical aberration. Often introduced on purpose, for extra smooth backgrounds - see above.

"Donut" is what you get from catadioptric (mirror) lenses.

Here's an example of different foreground and background bokeh, foreground on the left and background on the right in this example. Just having fun with swings, and a big fast lens: 300mm f:4.5 Xenar, at f:4.5 on 5x7" film:

Ed_Davor · Apr 30, 2006

thanks, by the way, how is bokeh pronaunced?

rbarker · Apr 30, 2006

Bokeh = boh-kay

Oren Grad · Apr 30, 2006

rbarker said:
Bokeh = boh-kay

No. The sound is a short "e" (as in "let", or "beg"), not a long "a" (as in "pay" or "hay"). Americans sometimes find this strange, since short "e" as an ending sound is not common in English. But it's very common in Japanese.

I transliterated it from Japanese as "boke", but when he ran the feature articles in Photo Techniques, Mike Johnston added the "h" to keep people from pronouncing it to rhyme with "Coke".

Cheers...

firecracker · Apr 30, 2006

Oren Grad said:
No. The sound is a short "e" (as in "let", or "beg"), not a long "a" (as in "pay" or "hay"). Americans sometimes find this strange, since short "e" as an ending sound is not common in English. But it's very common in Japanese.

That's right.

donbga · Apr 30, 2006

Oren Grad said:
No. The sound is a short "e" (as in "let", or "beg"), not a long "a" (as in "pay" or "hay"). Americans sometimes find this strange, since short "e" as an ending sound is not common in English. But it's very common in Japanese.

I transliterated it from Japanese as "boke", but when he ran the feature articles in Photo Techniques, Mike Johnston added the "h" to keep people from pronouncing it to rhyme with "Coke".

Cheers...

So in plain English, bokeh should be pronounced, BO - KEY?

MattKing · Apr 30, 2006

donbga said:
So in plain English, bokeh should be pronounced, BO - KEY?

Or the Canadian version - BOK-EH?

George Papantoniou · May 1, 2006

"Bokeh" comes from the Greek word "boukali" that means "bottle" and, as elekm correctly put it, the effect that sharp images usually produce on film in the cameras that are held by drunken photographers. Or, the result on the film that someone obtains when he exchanges his/her Planar by a cheaper lens made out of a cut Bottle Bottom End (the cut BBE's are what has remained from the bottles used by Blues Guitar players for the "sliding guitar effect" (SGE) so proudly produced in the Southern Regions of the USA...)

firecracker · May 1, 2006

George Papantoniou said:
"Bokeh" comes from the Greek word "boukali" that means "bottle" and, as elekm correctly put it, the effect that sharp images usually produce on film in the cameras that are held by drunken photographers. Or, the result on the film that someone obtains when he exchanges his/her Planar by a cheaper lens made out of a cut Bottle Bottom End (the cut BBE's are what has remained from the bottles used by Blues Guitar players for the "sliding guitar effect" (SGE) so proudly produced in the Southern Regions of the USA...)

Alright. Let me finish my drink, and I'll go creative on my way home with the empty bottle!

George Papantoniou · May 1, 2006

firecracker said:
Alright. Let me finish my drink, and I'll go creative on my way home with the empty bottle!

I'm sure that an empty Sake bottle will help you get creative (at least for a few hours after consuming its content)...

butterflydream · May 1, 2006

So, with German lens you get beer bokeh, with Japanese lens you get sake bokeh.

Ole · May 1, 2006

butterflydream said:
So, with German lens you get beer bokeh, with Japanese lens you get sake bokeh.

Considering that Schneider makes their lenses in Bad Kreuznach, you could hope to get Trockenbeerenauslesebokeh. But I'm afraid Rodenstock is irredeemably beerish.

firecracker · May 1, 2006

butterflydream said:
So, with German lens you get beer bokeh, with Japanese lens you get sake bokeh.

How about Soju liquor? Does it make you creative?

That liquor totally knocked me out in the restroom in a bar once and I couldn't make it home that night. I was pretty artistic with myself on the floor.

George Papantoniou · May 1, 2006

Ole said:
Considering that Schneider makes their lenses in Bad Kreuznach, you could hope to get Trockenbeerenauslesebokeh. But I'm afraid Rodenstock is irredeemably beerish.

I think that I have an old bottle of Trockenbeerenauslese in my basement, Ole... I could invite anyone who can pronounce it for a party in my place to empty it, but I guess that it won't be very crowded...

bob01721 · May 1, 2006

George Papantoniou said:
I think that I have an old bottle of Trockenbeerenauslese in my basement, Ole... I could invite anyone who can pronounce it for a party in my place to empty it, but I guess that it won't be very crowded...

If you say when, I'll bring a coupla '78 J. J. Prum TBAs. Nectar!

Ole · May 1, 2006

George Papantoniou said:
I could invite anyone who can pronounce it for a party in my place to empty it, but I guess that it won't be very crowded...

I'll be there!

Dan Fromm · May 1, 2006

bob01721 said:
If you say when, I'll bring a coupla '78 J. J. Prum TBAs. Nectar!

Hmm. I live in sout' joisey. And I'm firmly on the wagon, doctor's orders. Even so, I'd happy drink a little of your wein.

butterflydream · May 1, 2006

firecracker said:
How about Soju liquor? Does it make you creative?

That liquor totally knocked me out in the restroom in a bar once and I couldn't make it home that night. I was pretty artistic with myself on the floor.

You may be artistic but the problem is you hardly can get a hold of camera. You get bokeh in your brain but not on the film.

bob01721 · May 1, 2006

Dan Fromm said:
Hmm. I live in sout' joisey. And I'm firmly on the wagon, doctor's orders. Even so, I'd happy drink a little of your wein.

Where in South Jersey? I'm in Haddon Township.

O Fernandez · May 1, 2006

The May/June 1997 issue of Photo Techniques published three very informative articles on the matter of bokeh: What is Bokeh? by John Kennerdell; Notes on the Terminology of Bokeh by Oren Grad; and A Technical view of Bokeh by Harold Merkeinger. The last article can be found posted on the internet, while the other two more interesting article are not, and are probably covered by copyright laws, so the only way to obtain them is to buy the back issue of Photo Techniques. I wish Oren Grad had decided to speak up more on the topic of bokeh, since his article is the most pertinent to this discussion. I list some of the salient points and terminology from Oren Grads article:

* bokeh refers to the rendition of the out of focus areas of a photograph, and may be classified as good or bad bokeh.

* good bokeh softens the objects in front of the plane of focus (mae-boke).

*Out-of-focus background objects (ushiro-bokeh) lose detail but maintain their basis shapes and tones.

* One common fault noted in Japanese lens tests is ni-sen (two-line) bokeh: a tendency for out of focus objects to separate into two overlapping images.

* Some o-o-f highlights may be described as having enkan (ring) bokeh.

* O-o-f highlights having recognizable shapes may be described by the terms enkei (circular) bokeh, han-enjoh (semi-circular) bokeh, marumi ga aru (roundish), hosongai (long and narrow) or kometto-job

* When the lens is stopped down the blade structure of the iris may become apparent in the form of surudoi kado (sharp corners) in the ten bokeh (point bokeh)

Oren Grads article goes on to describe some vague and subjective bokeh terms;

* The overall look of the image may be described as sofuto (soft) or katai (hard)

* As the bokeh becomes less clean it may be described as hanzatsu (complex) or as kuzureru (breaking up or loosing shape).

Also noted in the article are some, overall judgmental terms summing up a lens bokeh: kirei (pretty, beautiful, clean); sunao (gentle, well behaved); yoi (good); konomashii (nice, likeable); odayaka (gentle); shzen (natural) or even kani no yoi bokeh " - bokeh that gives a good feeling; or when the reviewer is being critical, as the absence of such qualities.

In all the first two articles noted are the most informative discussion of bokeh, and certainly more complete an explanation than I have seen anywhere on the internet.

George Papantoniou · May 2, 2006

Mr Fernandez, this is really impressive !!!! I will look for the issue you mention in my Photo Techniques collection, but in case I don't find it, could you point out the link where the third article can be found (the one that is posted on the internet) ?

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