blue RA-4 prints problems. Please help.

MixingBlix

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Hello, I got consistent blue RA-4 prints regardless the content on the negatives.
If I set cyan to zero, the whole print gone pure blue. Adding up cyan filtration is the only way I can do. In order to get an acceptable print, my final filtration value is C90, M85, Y70. It looks crazy because I know enlarging color negative seldom uses cyan filtrations.

After that, I used Unicolor and Beseler subtractive color calculator to confirm CMY filtrations value and the results told me that Cyan is needed.

Please help.... got confused

Here I list my darkroom setups and tools for printing:
  1. Darkroom: absolutely no light.
  2. Enlarger and lamp: LPL 5xxx color enlarger with 12V 100W Osram light bulb (3500K light temp).
  3. Negative used: Pro400 H and Ektar100 developed with fresh C-41B chemical. I can't see any visible flaw on the negatives. Scanned image (Epson V550) looks Ok to me.
  4. Exposure time: usually ranges from 10 - 20 seconds.
  5. Paper: Kodak RA4 paper, but not sure about the expire date, brought it from a local lab. stored in a thick black plastic bag. Stored 3 - 4 month on my book shelf before use. Room temperature 20 - 35 degree Celsius.
  6. RA-4 chemical: Fresh Kodak Ektacolor Prime paper chemicals from authorized vendor.
  7. Modified Durst RCP20 (for RA4 process) used during RA4 printing. No stop bath between developer and Blix.

Epson scanned negative:

RA4 print if Cyan is low, 30 - 40:

RA4 print C90, M85, Y70 (the one look pretty close to scanned copy):
 

Donald Qualls

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To expand a little -- all you get by having all three filters active is neutral density -- C10 M10 Y20, IIRC (because yellow filter is weaker than cyan and magenta), is equivalent to a neutral. Adding cyan is equivalent to cutting magenta and yellow, so you should be able to cut the cyan to zero and cut back magenta and yellow, perhaps below "starting" values for the paper you have.
 

UnderwoodPhoto

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What Donald said. With subtractive printing, CMY, Add the color you have too much of. Additive printing, RGB, is just the opposite. I think Phillips or Durst made a RGB enlarger in the 80s. Nicely made but went against all conventional printing at the time.
 

koraks

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Just to be sure, you dried the print before evaluating it, yes? When wet, the blacks tend to be bluish.
If you can't get proper filtration with just Y and M, something is wrong with either the negative or the paper processing/chemistry. If you're running a processor, check if the bath temperature and processing time are in line with each other.
 

mshchem

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If you Google Kodak starting filter pack, a old data sheet from 2002 at 125px.com with the Portra III paper EK in the old days recommended starting with a 45Y 45M filter "pack" and adjusting from there. You are able to correct to get a reasonable print so, I agree with the others you need to remove a bunch of neutral density. And yes you need to dry the print before judgment.

https://125px.com/
 

perkeleellinen

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I would get blue borders when I used weak / exhausted stop.

Lots of variables here but don't use Cyan at all and try with some new paper, yours may be fogged.
 

BMbikerider

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It was a point embedded into me that the cyan filter should not be used when printing RA4. As Donald Qualls has already mentioned using the Cyan filter only serves as a neutral density filter. Stick with Yellow and Magenta and you will be fine. If you are using Kodak paper try to get a set of Kodak printing filters, they will give you guidance what you need to add or subtract. The blue cast when the print is wet only affects Kodak paper, Fuji paper does not show it.

To speed up the time when you can assess the colour balance wipe the water off the emulsion then use a hair dryer to dry the print. With the Kodak paper you will see the blue vanish when it is perfectly dry. The light you check a test print to see if the balance is correct needs to be daylight around noon - in other words about 6500-6700 degrees Kelvin. Because sun is not always around, I use a LED bulb rated at 6500 Kelvin and that is close enough with only minor tweaks needed to get it absolutely correct.
 
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MixingBlix

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Thanks you all for your help!

My prints were still blue after drying. The blue prints were discarded and i have no pics.

Based on your inputs, I guess something went wrong on my RA4 paper ( probably expired for a very long time), because subtractive color calculator told me to add Cyan.

Next time I will do the following changes:
1. Using new papers (I ordered roll paper from kodak authorized vendor).
2. Develop papers in drums. My roller transport processor is 55 seconds in each step, and the temperature was not that accurate.
3. Starting filters from C0 M50 Y40 as UnderwoodPhoto suggested.
 

koraks

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Older paper generally doesn't shift to cyan; if anything, it shifts to yellow in my experience.
55 seconds at >30C sounds good so shouldn't be the problem.
I'd measure developer pH to see if it's on spec.

MixingBlix said:
color calculator told me to add Cyan
Click to expand...
Throw away that guideline as you *never* add cyan when printing RA4. It should have told you to decrease both Y and M.

Btw your second image shows mostly way too much blue, so I would have started by dialing back Y by 15-20 units and leave the rest alone and then see what comes out. Especially at the start only change one filter at a time until you develop a feeling for how the material responds to more complex adjustments.

All this is of course under the assumption that your negatives are ok, which we have not yet been able to establish. I'd test with a roll developed by a decent/reputable lab to exclude the possibility of a film development issue.
 

MattKing

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MixingBlix

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Hi Matt thanks for your input
I used unicolor subtractive color calculator. As instructed, the left cube is used for negatives printing (red circle in pic). So i guess the tool should be correct .
However i cant find several pages on the user manual , only cubic chart with filtration tuning data is available. Perhaps i used it in a wrong way

 

MattKing

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There is at least a possibility that the "calculator" is faded/discoloured and therefore not particularly helpful.
 

Donald Qualls

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The only time you'd add cyan in printing on RA-4 is if either your magenta or yellow is already at zero, and the print is still too blue. There aren't likely to be many negatives where this would occur (if you used tungsten balanced film to shoot in "open shade" lighting just after sunset, maybe you'd get that much blue in the original image -- maybe).
 

mshchem

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Yeah, Bob Mitchell made good money on those things. I still have one buried somewhere, I could never make it work well. I have a proofing easel, Saunders. It allows you to make 4 individual prints on 1 sheet of 8x10 paper. All it is, is a mask. You need to do ring around exposures at different filter packs.
I will think I have it nailed down, come back the next day and change my mind.

Once you get it nailed down, you will find that if you don't change film or paper

I don't know what the lighting was like for original shots, unless the film is exposed by daylight or electronic flash you will not get good prints.

In the day you carried a color meter and a bunch of color correction filters.
 

Donald Qualls

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I haven't had a chance to use it yet, but I have a set of the Kodak Viewing Filters -- one side for printing from negatives, the other side for positives; The Naked Photographer (our Greg Davis) has a good video on how to use them. Number one thing is to flick the filter in and out of your view of the print, so your eye doesn't have time to adjust to the filter. Those and a ring-around will get you right.
 

MattKing

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Bikerider said:
This can vary with the film stock but it isn't far off. NEVER use the cyan filter it only serves as a neutral density filter. You can vary cyan casts by using the other two channels
Click to expand...
Unless you are printing from slides to a positive to positive material, like no longer available Cibachrome.
 

Wayne

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MattKing said:
Unless you are printing from slides to a positive to positive material, like no longer available Cibachrome.
Click to expand...

What do you mean not available? I have boxes of it in my freezer that are available for the right price! Out of warranty tho...
 

Bikerider

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It is a good job Cibachrome is no longer 'generally available', some of the chemical were carcinogenic, corrosive and very poisonous. As good as the prints were from Cibachrome, for me it is a good job they are no longer available.
 

Donald Qualls

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I've heard a theory that California is similar to a bio-testing lab, in that California causes cancer...
 

unityofsaints

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I am having the issue currently that even at 0 M 0 Y, the print is still too blue. The workaround is to start off with something like 40 C 0 M 0 Y. Mind you this is 15 year expired and overexposed 400H, I haven't encountered this issue in fresh and correctly exposed film.
 

Bikerider

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Literally in the last century, to be exact 1992 when I first started to print RA4 I was told NEVER EVER use the cyan filter. That could be a problem as it has been said using the cyan acts like a neutral density filter. In my mind the next problem may be the paper. Kodak have not made cut sheets of RA4 paper for at least 10 years that I know so it will be well past it's useful life. Unlike B&W paper the colour paper has 3 coatings as well as the light sensitive silver. It is my experience that the dyes in colour layers deteriorate at different speeds to each other, but in what sequence this happens I could not say. But a blue all over cast suggests it is lacking in yellow. Is the colour cast in the rebates that are covered in the making frame also blue. If so, then it is not filtration and may be age or contaminated developer.
 
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