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Thomas Bertilsson

Thomas Bertilsson

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This is such a rudimentary question. What do you all use to bleach prints before toning? I'm starting to venture more and more into toning. I'm starting with selenium and Kodak Brown. Next up I'm going to test thiocarbamide, and that's the first toner that would require a bleach.
It seems as if it's assumed you know which bleach to choose, but I haven't the faintest idea... Please give me a clue. I don't have a scale yet, so I can't mix it myself. Eventually I will, but until then - what do I do?

Thanks,

- Thomas
 
It depends - there are a number of different bleaches out there. I *usualy* use what is often refered to as 're-halogenating' bleach, which is what comes in the two-part sepia toners, although I mix it myself. There are other bleaches, many of which are covered in Tim Rudman's book on Toning (ISBN: 0817454659), which I *highly* recommend. In all fairness, there are likely other books on toning, but in my experience I have never found as comprehensive a source for toning that this book.

Be aware that you do no need to bleach to completion to tone, and that you can bleach and tone multipled times, with different toners, and even re-develop after bleaching to get different tones from other developers. Hell, you can even bleach *before* developing to get still more results.

- Randy
 
The late Barry Thornton's book (I can't recall the title and I'm writing at work so I can't check. It's something like The Edge of Sharpness, but I may have it wrong.) cites a post selenium toning bleach procedure that I am very eager to try. After toning, a pot ferri and pot bromide mixture is used, not as a reducer, but as a highlight bleach that doesn't affect the darker tones which are protected by the selenium. The illustration in his book has wet grass made luminous and glowing by this technic. It will be perfect for some of my prints. Check it out.
 
Sorry, what you're talking about is Greek to me. What's pot ferri? Sounds like I really need to read some books.

- Thom

jovo said:
The late Barry Thornton's book (I can't recall the title and I'm writing at work so I can't check. It's something like The Edge of Sharpness, but I may have it wrong.) cites a post selenium toning bleach procedure that I am very eager to try. After toning, a pot ferri and pot bromide mixture is used, not as a reducer, but as a highlight bleach that doesn't affect the darker tones which are protected by the selenium. The illustration in his book has wet grass made luminous and glowing by this technic. It will be perfect for some of my prints. Check it out.
Click to expand...
 
jovo said:
The late Barry Thornton's book (I can't recall the title and I'm writing at work so I can't check. It's something like The Edge of Sharpness, but I may have it wrong.) cites a post selenium toning bleach procedure that I am very eager to try. After toning, a pot ferri and pot bromide mixture is used, not as a reducer, but as a highlight bleach that doesn't affect the darker tones which are protected by the selenium. The illustration in his book has wet grass made luminous and glowing by this technic. It will be perfect for some of my prints. Check it out.
Click to expand...

Have used this many times on MGIV RC to clean highlights befor toning with good effect. have not tried it as a general all over bleach after toneing but in selective bleaching found it cleaned highlights OK but had some weird effects on the darker areas, causing colour change to yellow tint.
Would be interested to know how you get on and at what ratio you mixed it.
Regards Paul.
pot ferri = potasium ferricyanide. pot bromide = potasium bromide.
 
Paul. said:
Have used this many times on MGIV RC to clean highlights befor toning with good effect. have not tried it as a general all over bleach after toneing but in selective bleaching found it cleaned highlights OK but had some weird effects on the darker areas, causing colour change to yellow tint.
Would be interested to know how you get on and at what ratio you mixed it.
Regards Paul.
pot ferri = potasium ferricyanide. pot bromide = potasium bromide.
Click to expand...

yellow colour:
papers react differently to bleaching. some will get that yellow colour, some wont (after getting a good wash). i think it's safe to say that usually coldtone papers are more suited for bleaching than warmtone.

dilution:
one would think that's easy to find out, but it is not, since almost everybody seems to mix it off the cuff.
i make a 10% stock solution of potassium ferricyanide (no bromide) and then dilute it further for the working solution. at first i got good results with 1+30 - 1+40 (from stock). lately it doesn't work as good anymore, don't know why. maybe the stock solution went bad.

many people mix it with fixer. i tried it, sometimes got pretty good results, but stopped doing it, because i couldn't get it to work consistently. and i get pretty frustrated when i ruin an otherwise good print while bleaching.
maybe somebody has more/better info on dilution with fixer?

process:
i normally put a little bit of pot.ferr. working solution on the print (surface dried with a squeegee) with a brush, wait a few seconds, then flush the area with fixer to accelerate and then stop the bleaching. then flush the print with water. repeat that until it looks the way you want.
 
An easy start is to buy the Kodak Sepia II package and just use the bleach. Thats what I am doing right now. I dilute it double the package directions and find that it still works very quickly. Bleach before selenium is something I plan to try, just to see what it looks like.
 
If I wanted another just 'quick and dirty' way of bleaching a print, say for bromoil, or even just local bleaching a la Bruce Barnbaum - is there another way besides the Kodak Sepia II kit? I will buy Rudman's book (it's about time I bought ONE of his books at least), but in the meantime, I'd like to get started...

Thanks,

- Thom
 
percepts said:
In the mean time you will be wasting a lot of paper and time instead of reading how to do it properly in the first palce.
Click to expand...

As much as I admire mad scientists, I have to agree here. The only way to really get a handle on what you can do is to understand what each bleach does, why (or how) it does it, and what you can do with a bleached print. Bleaching and then selenuim toning will not, as far as I know, do anything becuase selenium does not re-develop the re-halogenized silver - a sepia toner however re-develops the silver that was re-halogenized by the bleach, as will another print developer. Also, different bleaches can be used in different ways, but without knowing how to control them all you will have access to is that one way, which is basicaly what sepia toning by the instructions is, so if you've done that, you've already seen much of what you can without knowing the details.

- Randy
 
reellis67 said:
As much as I admire mad scientists, I have to agree here. The only way to really get a handle on what you can do is to understand what each bleach does, why (or how) it does it, and what you can do with a bleached print. Bleaching and then selenuim toning will not, as far as I know, do anything becuase selenium does not re-develop the re-halogenized silver - a sepia toner however re-develops the silver that was re-halogenized by the bleach, as will another print developer. Also, different bleaches can be used in different ways, but without knowing how to control them all you will have access to is that one way, which is basicaly what sepia toning by the instructions is, so if you've done that, you've already seen much of what you can without knowing the details.

- Randy
Click to expand...

Randy,

I beg to differ, bleaching followed by selenium toning will most definitely do something. I have a gallery of examples on my website.Dead Link Removed

The last two images illustrate the difference between bleach-back and selenium tone and straight selenium toning.
 
Dave Miller said:
Randy,

I beg to differ, bleaching followed by selenium toning will most definitely do something. I have a gallery of examples on my website.Dead Link Removed

The last two images illustrate the difference between bleach-back and selenium tone and straight selenium toning.
Click to expand...

What re-develops the silver in the selenium? Or is it directly acted upon by the selenium anyway? Also, I would have thought that the fixer in the Kodak KRST would have an impact on the re-halogenized silver too, does this method lighten the print? I suppose that the selenium must be acting on the silver directly, and that since the fixer stage removed the altered silver from the initial exposure it can only react to the remaining silver despite it's state...

If you have a more technical explaination of what happens I would love to hear it. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert, but I've never read anything about doing this with selenium before this post.

- Randy
 
I just read your description

"The print was over-exposed by about a stop with reduced contrast, and then bleached in a very weak solution of Ferricyanide followed by fixing, washing, and in this case immersion in 1:9 selinium toner."

and I see what you're talking about. If that's what the previous post was refering to then I misunderstood his intent - I assumed from what was written that he was talking about bleaching and then selenium toning in that order with no other steps involved between (specificaly the key step - fixing). The fixing stage removes the rehalogenated silver from the print so that it is not there for the selenium to act on, which alters that tonal values - a very effective technique.

My comments were intended to say that simply bleaching and then selenium toning, as far as I know, will not produce any visible result. I'd be interested to know if it would now that we've been talking about it though...

- Randy
 
percepts said:
In the mean time you will be wasting a lot of paper and time instead of reading how to do it properly in the first palce.
Click to expand...

He isn't obligated to buy Tim Rudmans book.... Theres nothing wrong with experimenting.
 
reellis67 said:
My comments were intended to say that simply bleaching and then selenium toning, as far as I know, will not produce any visible result. I'd be interested to know if it would now that we've been talking about it though...

- Randy
Click to expand...


I've read two or three posts on google groups that mention bleaching and then selenium toning right after producing different results (colors) than just a selenium tone. I've never tried it but I'll do it when I get a chance. If nothing happens - oh well, I used a sheet of paper.
 
reellis67 said:
I just read your description

"The print was over-exposed by about a stop with reduced contrast, and then bleached in a very weak solution of Ferricyanide followed by fixing, washing, and in this case immersion in 1:9 selinium toner."

and I see what you're talking about. If that's what the previous post was refering to then I misunderstood his intent - I assumed from what was written that he was talking about bleaching and then selenium toning in that order with no other steps involved between (specificaly the key step - fixing). The fixing stage removes the rehalogenated silver from the print so that it is not there for the selenium to act on, which alters that tonal values - a very effective technique.

My comments were intended to say that simply bleaching and then selenium toning, as far as I know, will not produce any visible result. I'd be interested to know if it would now that we've been talking about it though...

- Randy
Click to expand...

Crossed thoughts here Randy.:sad: You are correct when considering bleaching to finality, in that case the selenium will have nothing to act on and some sort of redeveloping agent will be required to resurrect the image. It had not occurred to me that complete bleaching was being proposed;:confused: but on reflection it should have done, for it is a perfectly proper question to be put by a novice.

As to why the procedure I have outlined works, is an explanation I will have to leave to others to provide. All I can say is that it only works with certain papers; Kentmere Fineprint Gloss FB being one. I do recommend that a very dilute bleach is used (I dilute by a factor of 20) and that the print is fixed and washed prior to toning.
 
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