Bleaching Prints

Bob Carnie · Sep 30, 2010

Quick question, if I want to bleach a print dramatically , will a wash and then double fix, hypo clear be enough to then hold the action of the bleach , then tone.
much like spot bleaching but in this case I am bleaching the whole print to punch out the highligts??

PVia · Oct 1, 2010

Bob, that's been my experience.

Dan Henderson · Oct 1, 2010

wouldn't that produce the same effect as using Farmer's Reducer? If I understand it correctly, Farmer's has bleach and fixer so that the bleached image cannot be redeveloped?

Ian Grant · Oct 1, 2010

That's fine Bob.

Using Farmers reducer as opposed to a ferricyanide/bromide bleach is quite different in the way the bleach acts Dan. The Ferri/Bromide bleach works on the highlights first, while Farmers reducer works on the shadows as well.

Ian

Bob Carnie · Oct 1, 2010

thanks folks

I want to work on the highlight region only and keep the blacks super black.
Ian I want a very strong bleach effect as I need to bump up the highlights dramatically as I am making solarized prints where the highlights are too muddy for my taste .
any suggestions on the dilution ratios that would work well I am using Ferri/Bromide currently at 32grams each to 12 litres of water.?
I do not want to reach the shadows.

Ian Grant said:
That's fine Bob.

Using Farmers reducer as opposed to a ferricyanide/bromide bleach is quite different in the way the bleach acts Dan. The Ferri/Bromide bleach works on the highlights first, while Farmers reducer works on the shadows as well.

Ian

RalphLambrecht · Oct 1, 2010

Dan Henderson said:
wouldn't that produce the same effect as using Farmer's Reducer? If I understand it correctly, Farmer's has bleach and fixer so that the bleached image cannot be redeveloped?

Dan

That's correct. Farmer's Reducer is nothing but potassium ferricyanide (bleach) plus fixer. Using them together or sequentially has the same effect.
However, the mixture has the benefit that one can immediately see the bleaching progress. Unfortunately, it is not very stable due to a chemical reaction between ferri and fixer, causing it to lose its entire strength within 10-15 minutes.

Ian

What is a ferricyanide/bromide bleach?

Mark Layne · Oct 1, 2010

The Ferricyanide/Bromide bleach (and others) will allow redevelopment if things go too far but colours may change
Mark

Ian Grant · Oct 1, 2010

There's too many variables Bob. However a 100g/litre of each diluted 1+10 works very fast, that's 10g/litre, your talking a touch under 3g/litre, I'd start by diluting that a further 1+9 (1:10) so you have about 3g/litre Ferricyanide & KBr

One nice point about using this bleach is if it goes too far, you just wash and re-develop, the room light is usually sufficient to re-expose the bleached emulsion.

Ian

jeffreyg · Oct 1, 2010

My suggestion about bleaching is to do it gradually. You can always bleach more, you can't unbleach. I follow Ralph's suggestion and mix fresh or add potassium ferricyanide if it is too weak. I don't often bleach but it is a good idea to have at least one backup print just in case.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

Ian Grant · Oct 1, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
Dan

That's correct. Farmer's Reducer is nothing but potassium ferricyanide (bleach) plus fixer. Using them together or sequentially has the same effect.
However, the mixture has the benefit that one can immediately see the bleaching progress. Unfortunately, it is not very stable due to a chemical reaction between ferri and fixer, causing it to lose its entire strength within 10-15 minutes.

Ian

What is a ferricyanide/bromide bleach?

A Potassium Ferricyanide/Potassium Bromide bleach is a re halogenating bleach, more usually used for toners.

For artwork and complex reduction it's sometimes more useful than Farmers.

Using Potassium Ferricyanide on it's own followed by fixing is quite different in effect to the action of Farmers Reducer.

If you add ferricyanide to commercial fixer it's an agressive bleach particulary if the fixer is ammonium thiosulphate based. However Farmers Reducer uses plain Sodium Thiosulphate and the action is far more gentle and it's useful for lightening shadow details and much slower working.

Ian

MattKing · Oct 1, 2010

Ian Grant said:
A Potassium Ferricyanide/Potassium Bromide bleach is a re halogenating bleach, more usually used for toners.

For artwork and complex reduction it's sometimes more useful than Farmers.

Using Potassium Ferricyanide on it's own followed by fixing is quite different in effect to the action of Farmers Reducer.

If you add ferricyanide to commercial fixer it's an agressive bleach particulary if the fixer is ammonium thiosulphate based. However Farmers Reducer uses plain Sodium Thiosulphate and the action is far more gentle and it's useful for lightening shadow details and much slower working.

Ian

Ian (and others):

Would the bleach included with Kodak's Sepia Toner or Sepia Toner II packages be appropriate for this purpose, and if so, at what dilution?

Thanks

Ian Grant · Oct 1, 2010

Yes, it's a Ferricyanide/bromide bleach so ideal

Different papers and even paper/developer combinations have an effect on how fast a bleach works. You need 1/10th or less the normal strength needed for full bleaching for toning, 1/100th may be sufficient.

Ian

MattKing · Oct 1, 2010

Thank you.

I foresee some experimentation in my future.

RalphLambrecht · Oct 1, 2010

Ian Grant said:
... Using Potassium Ferricyanide on it's own followed by fixing is quite different in effect to the action of Farmers Reducer. ...

I have not experienced any difference, and I don't see why this would be either.

Rich Ullsmith · Oct 1, 2010

I don't see why there would be any difference, either. Except one is is irreversible. I probably wouldn't want to try this on prints that are difficult to replicate.

Ian Grant · Oct 1, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
I have not experienced any difference, and I don't see why this would be either.

There should be because the sodium thiosulphate and ferricyanide work together, but it depends what you're trying to retouch.

If you're just using a bleach on the highlights then the differences are not as significant, Farmers reducer exhausts quite quickly in use which helps the control-ability when retouching. The prescence of the thiosulphate help particularly when reducing shadow areas.

I seem to remember in a previous thread you used ferricyanide & rapid fixer as a reducer, and Ron Mowrey (PE) pointing out the aggressive nature of the combination.

Perhaps a simpler explanation is that Ferricyanide on it's own attacks the smaller grains first, that's why it's used with or without bromide for split toning, but with Thiosulphate added Farmers Reducers attacks the larger "black" grains as well at the same time.

If you put a print in a ferricyanide/bromide bleach some blacks don't bleach until the last moment, which is what's used in split toning, you control the time to pull from the bleach. Put a print in fresh Farmer's and leave it and it'll lighten more progressively across all the tones - very different.

Farmer's cannot contain commercial fixer only plain sodium thiosulphate anything else is very different in behaviour.

Ian

An Le-qun · Oct 1, 2010

Barry Thornton's Edge of Darkness describes a process whereby you selenium tone first, then wash, then apply the Potassium Ferricyanice/Potassium Bromide bleach (and 3g/liter is still kind of strong, in my experience); then fix again, but you can redevelop and do it all over again as long as you wait to re-fix until you're satisfied. The selenium holds back the darker areas, and the highlights get a fuller bleaching.

As other have noted, you get some changes in color (more with some papers than others); and every re-bleach, re-fix, re-develop or re-whatever that you do seems to take its toll on the print, until after several rounds you end up with something that just looks really...tired.

Bob Carnie · Oct 1, 2010

Ian : this sounds pretty logical, what do you think. If I bleach and refix after selenium, then move to my sepia tone and gold for the look, ??

An Le-qun said:
Barry Thornton's Edge of Darkness describes a process whereby you selenium tone first, then wash, then apply the Potassium Ferricyanice/Potassium Bromide bleach (and 3g/liter is still kind of strong, in my experience); then fix again, but you can redevelop and do it all over again as long as you wait to re-fix until you're satisfied. The selenium holds back the darker areas, and the highlights get a fuller bleaching.

As other have noted, you get some changes in color (more with some papers than others); and every re-bleach, re-fix, re-develop or re-whatever that you do seems to take its toll on the print, until after several rounds you end up with something that just looks really...tired.

Anon Ymous · Oct 1, 2010

Bob, it's not an easy task to bleach and refix, then do any toning. If you bleach to completion and refix, everything is gone and there's nothing to tone.

Bob Carnie · Oct 1, 2010

Anon
I am printing solarizations, the highlights are a mid grey, all I want to do is lift them up to a brighter level, I am not bleaching to completion.
I have found that all my tests in the past lack a POP that I think brighter highlight region could give.
I cannot get it *the pop*without some way of making them brighter.

Bob

Anon Ymous said:
Bob, it's not an easy task to bleach and refix, then do any toning. If you bleach to completion and refix, everything is gone and there's nothing to tone.

Anon Ymous · Oct 1, 2010

Bob, the critical step is knowing how far Se toning has progressed. It may or may not be obvious. So, it might not be easy to know when to stop bleaching. Anyway, having some test strips would be nice to experiment with, before proceeding to the actual print. Obviously, you'd need to repeat the process exactly after the test run.

Andrew Moxom · Oct 1, 2010

Bob... I know you use Kodak Sepia II kits for split tonig. I'd use the part A bleach from one of those packs. I find the stock pot ferri bleach solution to be VERY strong acting. For split toning my prints I dilute it 1:6 or more to get better control over this step and usually for no longer than 30 or 40 seconds. For what you are doing, stock solution might be the ticket to brighten those dull highlights, and crispen them up nicely. I assume you are leaving out the sulphide step and going straight to selenium. That said, the bleach alone at that strenght will tend warm things a little anyway.

Anon Ymous · Oct 1, 2010

Now that I think of it, you'd better bleach, fix, then do any toning. The only thing I don't know about is gold toning (too pricey for my wallet), and how it works... hi-lo tones getting toned first etc... That's IMHO the safest way, you'll have guaranteed that you have some silver to tone.

RalphLambrecht · Oct 1, 2010

Ian Grant said:
... Perhaps a simpler explanation is that Ferricyanide on it's own attacks the smaller grains first, that's why it's used with or without bromide for split toning, but with Thiosulphate added Farmers Reducers attacks the larger "black" grains as well at the same time. ...

Yes, that makes sense! Thanks for your explanation.

Guillaume Zuili · Oct 1, 2010

Bob Carnie said:
Ian : this sounds pretty logical, what do you think. If I bleach and refix after selenium, then move to my sepia tone and gold for the look, ??

Hi Bob,
I often do this selenium/bleach/sepia. You don't need to fix because you go to sepia.
If you just do selenium and bleach, then you fix and wash.
Z.

Bleaching Prints

Bob Carnie

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Ian Grant

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Ian Grant

MattKing

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Bleaching Prints

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