blank negatives after souping! help me narrow down the possibilities

kmallick · May 15, 2012

I have googled and read several posts on this, but I am still having a hard time coming to grips with this loss. I need some advice and suggestions on how to track down what could have gone wrong.

I shot a roll of 120, Agfa APX 100 (fairly old, like 10 years) in my Mamiya 645 Pro TL. Souped it in Rodinal 1:50 for 13 minutes. The negatives came out bleach blank, absolutely no trace of black. except of course the edge markings which are clearly visible.

I was extra careful as always in checking the order of developer, stop and fix going into the can, therefore the fix before developer is ruled out. When I poured out the can after developer, the liquid was dark purple!

I checked the camera and shutter and nothing seems to be wrong that can cause major light leaks. The film was loaded correctly and I checked it when I took the exposed roll out of the film back. I loaded the film into reels inside a bag with lot of care as always.

Could it be a fogged film? It took it out of a wrapper when I loaded it. I am tempted to go try out the same film, camera and souping combo once again and see what happens. But I thought I would post this question to seek some help to narrow down some scenarios that could have caused this.

Good thing that there was nothing valuable in the shots. However, I must admit that it is really heartbreaking to pull out blank negatives after all the effort in shooting and then going through all the inversions and swirling with high expectations at the end.

tkamiya · May 15, 2012

If you see edge markings, film and developers, and the sequence of processing are fine. If they were wrong, edge marking itself won't be there.

If there was absolutely no image of any kind, then film wasn't exposed. Did you remove the dark slide? Pro and super backs are interlocked and won't let you trip the shutter with the dark slide in - except when the darkslide is pulled part way, or when this interlock is broken. It's just a small electrical switch in the back itself and the cam that control this. I had an occasion where this switch became lose and will let me release shutter with the dark slide in.

Prof_Pixel · May 15, 2012

kmallick said:
I shot a roll of 120 APX 100 (fairly old, like 10 years) in my Mamiya 645 Pro TL. Souped it in Rodinal 1:50 for 13 minutes. The negatives came out bleach blank, absolutely no trace of black. except of course the edge markings which are clearly visible.

...

I checked the camera and shutter and nothing seems to be wrong that can cause major light leaks. The film was loaded correctly and I checked it when I took the exposed roll out of the film back. I loaded the film into reels inside a bag with lot of care as always.

Could it be a fogged film? It was inside a wrapper when I loaded it. I am tempted to go try out the same film, camera and souping combo once again and see what happens. But I thought I would post this question to seek some help to narrow down some scenarios that could have caused this.

Since you say "The negatives came out bleach blank, absolutely no trace of black. except of course the edge markings which are clearly visible." it appears the developer worked (edge markings). It can't be a light leak or fogged film because you said it was clear (if I interpret what you said correctly). It sounds like a shutter problem (or failure to remove a dark slide).

darkprints · May 15, 2012

Remove lens cap before taking picture.

kmallick · May 15, 2012

Thanks for the suggestions. All are in line of what I was thinking.
Everything points to the film not exposed at all. But thats what I am thoroughly confused about.
The dark slide was out of the film holder. I remember taking it off before shooting. I was using the main shutter button the front of the 645 Pro TL (and not the auto winder). I also remember putting the dark slide back after the shoot was complete and before I took the film holder off of the camera back.

tkamiya · May 15, 2012

darkprints said:
Remove lens cap before taking picture.

Or.... make sure the sun is shining that day.... (seriously though, Pro TL is an SLR. It would be obvious if the lens cap was on)

kmallick · May 15, 2012

darkprints said:
Remove lens cap before taking picture.

Its a SLR and I saw the image when shooting (albeit some were with mirror locked up). It was off, I promise!

tkamiya · May 15, 2012

What lens? Are you using lens with leaf shutter?

removed account4 · May 15, 2012

sounds like not enough exposure.
old film looses speed ..
if you exposed at asa 100
and processed as normal,
you might have under exposed
by a handful of stops, even though
your edge markings looked OK

good luck !
john

kmallick · May 15, 2012

tkamiya said:
What lens? Are you using lens with leaf shutter?

I was using the Mamiya 120mm macro. Its not a leaf shutter lens. I have used it before and it performs flawlessly.

Darkroom317 · May 15, 2012

I know that one time on my RB67 I had mirror lock-up on but I had no second cable release or double release. So, the shutter never fired even though the mirror went up an the darkslide was out. I finally caught it when I couldn't hear the shutter closing during long exposures. Could it be something like that?

kmallick · May 15, 2012

jnanian said:
sounds like not enough exposure.
old film looses speed ..
if you exposed at asa 100
and processed as normal,
you might have under exposed
by a handful of stops, even though
your edge markings looked OK

good luck !
john

thanks, this is definitely possible. what do you suggest I do for another roll I have of the exact same film. toss it or expose it as ASA 50 (and risk it again?).

kmallick · May 15, 2012

I had mixed shots on the roll. Some shots were with mirror locked up and some without (with long exposures). some were shot in broad sunlight with shutter speeds around 1/125 and 1/250 as well.

when I had the mirror locked up, I could hear the shutter opening and closing during the long exposures for a few macro shots.

removed account4 · May 15, 2012

i'd say shoot it at asa 20-25, and process it for 2x - 2.5 the time you originally processed it for.
but before you put the film in the camera, look through it, back open and fire the shutter
( to make sure it is actually working ).

i only shoot expired film, sometimes 20+ years old and unless you regularly shoot
the expired film you are shooting, sometimes it is unexpected what might happen
( as you have already noticed ) ... i keep things simple, only use 1 developer,
nothing rodinal, or boutique .. i process everything in coffee for about 30mins ...
and never have a problem.

good luck !
john

kmallick · May 15, 2012

jnanian said:
i'd say shoot it at asa 20-25, and process it for 2x - 2.5 the time you originally processed it for.
but before you put the film in the camera, look through it, back open and fire the shutter
( to make sure it is actually working ).

i only shoot expired film, sometimes 20+ years old and unless you regularly shoot
the expired film you are shooting, sometimes it is unexpected what might happen
( as you have already noticed ) ... i keep things simple, only use 1 developer,
nothing rodinal, or boutique .. i process everything in coffee for about 30mins ...
and never have a problem.

good luck !
john

very good advice from you and everybody else as well. Much appreciate everyone's input.
I have already checked the workings of the camera with the back open, made sure that the shutter is opening and closing properly.

yes old films can cause some unexpected surprises. After this incident, I am now intrigued and challenged to some extent to make some image come out of this 10 year old APX 100 (if thats the one to blame).

MattKing · May 15, 2012

Are you sure that the film you developed was the film that actually went through the camera?

It is possible to switch an unexposed film for an exposed film (don't ask me how I know)

kmallick · May 15, 2012

MattKing said:
Are you sure that the film you developed was the film that actually went through the camera?

It is possible to switch an unexposed film for an exposed film (don't ask me how I know)

good thinking. but I am 100% positive that the film I developed is the one I took off from the camera. It went straight to the film changing bag along with the patterson can.

cliveh · May 15, 2012

Did you load the film correctly?

kmallick · May 15, 2012

cliveh said:
Did you load the film correctly?

Yes, I think I do typically.

I was wondering about this as well and doubting myself on the film loading error part. All I remember now is seeing the starting arrow to line up before closing the film back and that the exposed roll was wound properly when it came out.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 15, 2012

Batteries?

kmallick · May 15, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Batteries?

its fresh. the 645 doesn't function if battery is dead.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 15, 2012

Well, let's see. Battery fresh, lens cap is not on. Film did not get exposed. Old film.

You should have gotten something on that film. I've used old and expired APX 100 and ten years out of date it was still close to full speed.

Either you test more of the same film in a different camera, or you test a different film in the same camera.

kmallick · May 15, 2012

Thomas Bertilsson said:
Well, let's see. Battery fresh, lens cap is not on. Film did not get exposed. Old film.

You should have gotten something on that film. I've used old and expired APX 100 and ten years out of date it was still close to full speed.

Either you test more of the same film in a different camera, or you test a different film in the same camera.

Excellent! I will do that. I am already running a 400 speed fresh film through the same camera, a tried and tested film that I am very used to developing. I will run the suspect APX100 through another camera. Hope to nail something!

pentaxuser · May 15, 2012

kmallick said:
Yes, I think I do typically.

I was wondering about this as well and doubting myself on the film loading error part. All I remember now is seeing the starting arrow to line up before closing the film back and that the exposed roll was wound properly when it came out.

All of what you say is possible with the film incorrectly loaded. It is surprising easy to load it so the backing paper covers the film. When you load it the black part of the backing paper needs to be against the pressure plate so the film part is in front and thus exposed to the shutter opening.

If the coloured( white in the case of Ilford) front of the backing paper iwas showing then the film part is underneath and cannot be exposed.

You may not have done this but as we appear able to rule out everything else based on your replies then I have to suggest what may appear to be the impossible.

I have had a P645N for many months now and still have to think hard about loading " the right way round"

In a rush or being distracted or not concentrating on the loading and I can easily imagine getting it wrong

pentaxuser

kmallick · May 15, 2012

pentaxuser said:
In a rush or being distracted or not concentrating on the loading and I can easily imagine getting it wrong

pentaxuser

could very well be. i feel very dumb if that was indeed the case.

thanks to everyone for the suggestions. i now know the most likely scenarios. but wish i could go back and check/fix them. live and learn.

blank negatives after souping! help me narrow down the possibilities

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