blank film, dead Rodinal?

reddesert · Jul 14, 2020

If you still have the bottle of old developer, you can do a clip test (developing a small piece of leader in full daylight) to determine whether the developer is in fact completely inactive.

removedacct2 · Jul 15, 2020

AgX said:
The problem I see here is that lye-based drain cleaner sold here can be pure NaOH but likely be a compound, even containing solid Aluminium.

here in Norway pure lye is found everywhere, on the shelves with cleaning products. Kaustisk soda. But products with mention "drain cleaner" are typically a mix of NaOH and something else.

what is a problem in Norway, because the low population I guess, is availability of film and chemistry. So I buy often from Maco or Fotoimpex. BUT, because we are not in the EU empire, there is sometimes some weirdness, either on the norwegian side or on the EU side... I think of traditional 3-baths C41 (Fuji Hunt, Digibase...). Then the norwegian tax system.
Sometimes I get stuff bought in Germany shipped to the nearest DHL pickup point in Sweden. I am 100kms away so I shortcut couple surrealistic annoyances.

I am considering mixing my own C41 chemicals. Will have to invest in a lab-grade Ph-meter but otherwise raw powders are available through Wolfgang Moersch, or from Poland.

removedacct2 · Jul 15, 2020

reddesert said:
If you still have the bottle of old developer, you can do a clip test (developing a small piece of leader in full daylight) to determine whether the developer is in fact completely inactive.

no, I dumped it.
That said, I did the 1+50 @10min, so if it had been even a little bit active, there would have been something on the film I guess....

also, I am totally positive I didn't pour fixer instead of dev, because the way I do one shots. I keep colored plastic bottle with fix, and I use clear glass bottles for the dev.
I have just processed a roll with HC-110. I mix HC-110 with water, then pour it in a bottle. Bottles are put in a sink full of temperature controlled water for some time, then I process, grab the glass bottle first, etc.
I the case of this Rodinal, I did the 1+50 mix, which gave a dark yellow liquid. I poured that first in the thank, dumped it after dev, stop and then grabbed the plastic bottle with fixer. It's fool proof and I was not drunk

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 15, 2020

I've had success with Donald Qualls' Parodinal formula, which is quite long lasting, if you're not in a warm climate. Since moving to Hawai'i I've found it doesn't last as long as it did in New York (which was years), but I can make as much as I need and don't have to feel like I'm wasting any, particularly since I make it with expired acetaminophen tablets that I would have tossed anyway.

Who hasn't been tempted to buy the 500 tablet bottle on sale when it only costs 30% more than the 100 tablet bottle, not considering that it doesn't even fit in the medicine cabinet, and that the whole family probably doesn't use more than 20 tablets a year?

Donald Qualls · Jul 16, 2020

David A. Goldfarb said:
Who hasn't been tempted to buy the 500 tablet bottle [of acetaminophen] on sale when it only costs 30% more than the 100 tablet bottle, not considering that it doesn't even fit in the medicine cabinet, and that the whole family probably doesn't use more than 20 tablets a year?

When I was a Costco member, I bought my developer tablets, er, acetaminophen as two bottles of 500 for $11. Those got tossed in my last move (pretty sure); it's a bit more now (that was fifteen years ago), but I can still get it for under 2 cents a tablet. With lye at $5 a can and sodium sulfite about $3.50 a lb (if you buy 10 lb), I can develop in Parodinal for about 6-7 cents a roll (and reusable fixer made with pool chemicals only about doubles that). Yes, that's half the cost of long-term replenished Xtol.

Team ADOX · Jul 16, 2020

antonio_b said:
actually, as mentioned twice in the thread, Afga Rodinal formula was bought by Adox Fotowerke AG, who are also the owner of the film supplies shop and lab Fotoimpex in Berlin and website of same name. The Adox Adonal/Rodinal (same, different naming) developer is the last Afga Rodinal formula of 2004:
https://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-film-developer/rodinal-adonal/

That is correct.
Both ADOX Rodinal and ADOX Adonal have exactly the same, original chemical formula Agfa (Germany) used for their Rodinal before they quit the market.
Other Rodinal-like derivates/clones from other suppliers are using similar formulations, but not the same, original one.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

tezzasmall · Jul 18, 2020

Just to say, that I too got a totally blank film with my bottle of Rodinal, which wasn't that old and had barely been used.

I did the dip test on a few bits of film, after the above happened, and again they were totally blank with no edge markings of any kind. You won't be surprised to hear that I now do dip tests with ANY film developer that I use, before developing the whole new film now.

As for the non-working Rodinal, I took pictures of the films, the bottle and of the liquid Rodinal and sent them to the manufacturer in Germany, but received no reply.

Personally if I was the manufacturer I would have been both worried and intrigued enough to have asked for a sample to be sent, but there you go...

Terry S
UK

Tom Kershaw · Jul 18, 2020

tezzasmall said:
As for the non-working Rodinal, I took pictures of the films, the bottle and of the liquid Rodinal and sent them to the manufacturer in Germany, but received no reply.

Which manufacturer was this?

tezzasmall · Jul 19, 2020

Tom Kershaw said:
Which manufacturer was this?

And although the bottle looks a bit tatty, which happened when I gave the outside of the bottle a good wash down after dripping some Rodinal down the side of it. The most important bit is that the bottle of developer was only a few months old and used just the once before the incident of a totally blank film.

Terry S

Donald Qualls · Jul 19, 2020

I still don't see anything out of the ordinary for a Rodinal derivative. If recent clip tests come up with no darkening, I won't argue its life status (after all, it's not a Norwegian Blue), but it's not unusual for working Rodinal-alikes to look like that, though I wouldn't expect it over just a few months from opening.

Henning Serger · Jul 19, 2020

tezzasmall said:
View attachment 250730 View attachment 250731 View attachment 250730 View attachment 250731
And although the bottle looks a bit tatty, which happened when I gave the outside of the bottle a good wash down after dripping some Rodinal down the side of it. The most important bit is that the bottle of developer was only a few months old and used just the once before the incident of a totally blank film.

Terry S

Terry,
that is a Rodinal derivate / clone. Different to the original Agfa Rodinal formula which is used by ADOX. Maco Photo Products is the supllier / distributor of it, not the manufacturer. They cannot produce anything by themselves, they don't have any production capabilities. They are a pure distribution company. This deveoper is produced by a different German photo chemistry manufacturer, and then bottled / finished by Compard for Maco.
That you haven't got a reply by them is not surprising. I have heard from many customers that they never got a reply when they have contacted Maco. Don't take it personal.

Best regards,
Henning

Anon Ymous · Jul 19, 2020

Henning Serger said:
Terry,
that is a Rodinal derivate / clone. Different to the original Agfa Rodinal formula which is used by ADOX. Maco Photo Products is the supllier / distributor of it, not the manufacturer. They cannot produce anything by themselves, they don't have any production capabilities. They are a pure distribution company. This deveoper is produced by a different German photo chemistry manufacturer, and then bottled / finished by Compard for Maco.

Calbe?

R.Gould · Jul 19, 2020

I use ro9/one shot, made by Compard, sold under the Firstcall label, supplied in softpak, on friday I used up the dregs of a 5 year old bottle to see what happened, it was black, with crystals rattling around, the film was Fomapan 400, and deeveloped as normal, I have just finished printing the results, the negatives were fine, printed on grade 2 to 3 as normal, I have nevr had the ro9/one shot go bad, even with crystals forming, I always use it down to the last 10 ml( the amount of concetrate I need to develop a MF film), it lasts as well as Agfa rodinal, at least for me, could be the softpak that helps to exclude air, but the last drop that I used on friday was from a plastic bottle that I decanted the softpak when I got it new, in 2015, I know the date because I always put the date recieve whatever I get,Paper,chemicals Ect, so in mmy experiance of RO9/one shot, which I have used as soon as it was for sale as a replacement for Agfa Rodinal, is that it keeps as well as the original,mind you, I am not that careful how I store it, it is on the chemical shelf with everything else in the darkroom, gets hot in there in the summer, don't know if my storage has anything to do with it, but I have never been that careful about storage, and never get problems with it, but it works
Richard

Helge · Jul 19, 2020

I decant my Rodinal into a glass bottle that I fill with glass balls as I use it.
It also helps with crystal forming I imagine, since the balls mix the liquid when you shake the bottle, without any air getting mixed into the dev, mind.
That way I can keep it in the fridge without worry.

Is any of this bad? I thinking specifically about the decanting. Is the air that is mixed into the developer during the pouring destructive? Or is it insignificant?

reddesert · Jul 19, 2020

Sodium hydroxide reacts with glass, and so does potassium hydroxide. Most (all?) Rodinal formulas have one or the other. I would keep it in the original plastic bottle or a suitable substitute. You can search for advice on storing NaOH or KOH as plenty of chemical websites advise on proper storage vessels - polyethylene and polypropylene seem to be recommended.

Helge · Jul 19, 2020

reddesert said:
Sodium hydroxide reacts with glass, and so does potassium hydroxide. Most (all?) Rodinal formulas have one or the other. I would keep it in the original plastic bottle or a suitable substitute. You can search for advice on storing NaOH or KOH as plenty of chemical websites advise on proper storage vessels - polyethylene and polypropylene seem to be recommended.

https://www.adox.de/Photo/keeping-properties-of-developers/

“ADOX for chemistry which is subject to oxydisation. In general you can check if your bottle is made from:

Glas = the best option. Cat.A
PET or ADOX PE/PA = very good. Cat. A
PE-HD or other materials which are non blocking = inferior for developers. Cat B”

And

“The amount of openings of the bottle- the more, the worse.
Have you used protective gas or glass marbles to push oxygen containing air out of the bottle again?”

And

“Keep the developer in the original bottle if it is a PE/PA or PET bottle. Refill developer sold in a PE-HD bottle to a glass bottle.”

All of the above would seem to indicate that glass and glass marbles are ok and mandated from the manufacturer?

john_s · Jul 19, 2020

reddesert said:
Sodium hydroxide reacts with glass, and so does potassium hydroxide. Most (all?) Rodinal formulas have one or the other. I would keep it in the original plastic bottle or a suitable substitute. You can search for advice on storing NaOH or KOH as plenty of chemical websites advise on proper storage vessels - polyethylene and polypropylene seem to be recommended.

The main problem with hydroxide solution in glass (or possibly other quite alkaline solutions) is with glass stoppered bottles. I used to use them because I thought that glass is best, but sometimes the stoppers stayed stopped until heat and force could dislodge them.

When I started using Rodinal in the 1960s it came in glass with a hard plastic screw cap and a tight fitting rubber bung in the neck of the bottle. I assume that this was the legendary long lasting version. It did last in my experience, although I never used the last few percent on the assumption that something could go wrong. I first used it with Agfa's then super speed film which was about 1000 ASA but the grain was unacceptable. Then I moved to Tri-X in Acufine and was very pleased with it.

Helge · Jul 19, 2020

How about just not using glass plugs then?
There are plenty of screw cab, plastic, or plastic coated metal, glass bottles out there.

tezzasmall · Jul 20, 2020

Henning Serger said:
Terry,
that is a Rodinal derivate / clone. Different to the original Agfa Rodinal formula which is used by ADOX. Maco Photo Products is the supllier / distributor of it, not the manufacturer. They cannot produce anything by themselves, they don't have any production capabilities. They are a pure distribution company. This deveoper is produced by a different German photo chemistry manufacturer, and then bottled / finished by Compard for Maco.
That you haven't got a reply by them is not surprising. I have heard from many customers that they never got a reply when they have contacted Maco. Don't take it personal.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning, many thanks for your reply and it all makes sense.

I'll try to find out myself, but do you personally know who the manufacturer is?

Many thanks,

Terry S

R.Gould · Jul 20, 2020

Terry' AFIK Compard make their own chemistry, if not then it could be made for them by Labour Partners who make a lot of the Rollei branded chemistry,

Henning Serger · Jul 20, 2020

R.Gould said:
Terry' AFIK Compard make their own chemistry, if not then it could be made for them by Labour Partners who make a lot of the Rollei branded chemistry,

No, they cannot produce any chemistry by their own. They have neither the knowledge, nor the machinery, nor the employees for that. I've been there. They are a pure bottling / finishing operation. They got the chemistry from a chemistry manufacturer in bigger barrels, and then bottle it in PE bottles and put the labels on it.
Same for Labor Partner (never had any own chemistry production), which was the 'forerunner' company of compard (founded by the father of the compard founder; the compard founder unfortunately died some years ago in young age by cancer; his wife continued the operation).

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Jul 20, 2020

tezzasmall said:
Henning, many thanks for your reply and it all makes sense.
I'll try to find out myself, but do you personally know who the manufacturer is?
Many thanks,
Terry S

Terry, unfortunately Maco has a track record of (more) often to change their suppliers (than others) : Which also often causes changes in the products, but unfortunately without notice to the customers. Some years ago Tetenal made a Rodinal clone for them for their R09 one shot. AFAIK that is still the case, but I cannot give you a 100% guarantee for that .

I use ADOX Rodinal for certain films and special applications. With this product I know that I get the same Rodinal formula that I've got in former times when I used Agfa Rodinal.
Another reasons for this choice:
- ADOX uses higher-quality bottles, which have an additional inner coating which significantly reduce oxygen diffusion. Better shelf life for the chemistry.
- ADOX is investing in R&D and new products: Film, photo paper and photo chemistry. I am convinced that this is worth to be supported.

Best regards,
Henning

miha · Jul 20, 2020

Henning Serger said:
They got the chemistry from a chemistry manufacturer in bigger barrels, and then bottle it in PE bottles and put the labels on it.

Apropos, this also stands for ADOX in regard to Rodinal; they source it from Tetenal. There is a video somewhere on Youtube showing the bottling process. Most of other chemistry ADOX do by themselves. Correct?

138S · Jul 20, 2020

antonio_b said:
... shelf life ...

Routinely, while you prepare the pottery for the development, you may let fall a drop of developer on a film end, and (lights open) see if developer is working more or less properly. Soon or late that easy procedure will prevent you toally ruin some film that it may have important images.

Also you may make a time controlled drop test when developer is fresh, and comparing in the future if developer strength varied.

Henning Serger · Jul 20, 2020

miha said:
Apropos, this also stands for ADOX in regard to Rodinal; they source it from Tetenal. There is a video somwhere on Youtube showing the bottling process. Most of other chemistry ADOX do by themselves. Correct?

Well, only partly.
ADOX is the only company offering the original, last-by-Agfa-used Rodinal formula (they have bought it). They do produce lots of their film developers in-house, both in their factory at their headquarter, and in their factory in Marly. As well as Ilford Photo and Kodak, they also do cooperate with other chemistry manufacturers in certain areas, in which it makes a lot of sense for the customers and the company.

Best regards,
Henning

blank film, dead Rodinal?

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