Black&White&Contrast& De Vere 504

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Rob Ruttan

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Last night I read something that gave me the impression that there were certain 'default' settings recommended for the cyan, red and yellow contrast filters on a De Vere 504 when printing Black & White. There were references to charts, and some mention that the charts were included with Ilford paper, but there are no charts of any kind in the boxes I have. Anyone know about this? The idea of there being 'default' settings for something as individualized as making a pleasing print stymies me, but since everything I've done so far has been crap...well!
 

Ian Grant

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Go to the Ilford website there's loads of info there.

I've only been using a De Vere with Multigrade for a few months (300+) so I'm going to be no help. Seriously Ilford & De Vere publish all you need to know and it's spot on.

Ian
 

Mick Fagan

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Check out this link to Ilford's B&W paper information.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130201152306.pdf

What you will find interesting is the ability to do 1/4 grade steps by dividing the difference between the given 1/2 grade steps.

With my own 1981 504 DeVere I find that there is about 1/8 of a stop time difference with every 1/2 a stop grade change.

Mick.
 
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I have a 504. The dichroic filters fade, especially the magenta ones. I highly recommend getting a 31 step Stouffer step wedge and figuring out what contrast your enlarger gives with a specific type of paper. Paul Butzi outlines an easy way to do this on his website under the articles section. His system allows you keep constand highlight exposure for changes in contrast. So you expose for the highlights and adjust contrast for the shadows. This system works really well, and the plotted curves allow you to do any intermediate value that you'd like.
 
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Rob Ruttan

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Thanks for the info. Honestly, sometimes getting started at this is like trying to learn alchemy! :smile:
 

jerry lebens

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Hi Rob,

Your problem caught my eye. I may not be much help, but the subject of using colour enlargers for B&W is a subject that interests me. As an Ilford Master I regularly visit educational establishments which use colour enlargers for B&W and it really annoys me : Using a colour head makes the whole process more difficult to understand. It's less intuitive and this holds many people back. Learning to print with one hand tied behind your back is frustrating.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to print well using a dichroic colour head, just that it's much harder.

Anyway, I was interested in Peter's contribution regarding Paul Butzi. The system looks good but it won't help me much as I visit too many different darkrooms with numerous enlargers. You could certainly calibrate your colour head that way. However, I'd suggest something more radical. If you can afford it, buy a Multigrade head. The process is simpler and much more intuitive, your printing will improve overnight.

Regards
Jerry
 

Ian Grant

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While a Multigrade head would be a bonus, all I can say is I've been using Durst and De Vere colour head enlarges for at least 30 years for B&W and have never found it remotely difficult.

It's intuitive to just dial in more Magenta to increase the contrast and lower it or add Yellow to decrease it, I don't bother with the charts anymore. It's what you get used to.

The same enlargers are used for Colour work and so I would need to switch heads all the time.

Ian
 

Mick Fagan

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Jerry, I do understand your problem, but the educational facilities would then have to have different enlargers for B&W and colour. This would add to their cost in both money and space.

Having used all sorts of B&W multigrade head enlargers, I agree they have a marginal difference in output. Granted it is easier at the start for someone new to enlarging to dial in grade 3 instead of looking up on a chart, but it takes about ten minutes and two or three sheets of paper to see just what different grades of contrast will do to the same negative.

Having also used many colour enlargers for B&W work, including my current DeVere 504, I see no real difference in output in a real world environment.

Mick.
 

Paul.

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Peters point about the filters fadeing seems valid to me, haveing recently upgraded to a 504 with colour head I have noticed I am printing on a harder grade with the same negs than with my previous Jobo. Will contact Oddesy and price new magenta and yellow ones. My enlarger was biult in the mid 70's and used in a pro lab untill 4 years ago when it was put into storage, concidering the number of prints it has done and its age it would seem logical the filters have faded. Anyone any idea how often the filters need changing, or is it use dependent.

Regards Paul.
 

snallan

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I have a 504. The dichroic filters fade, especially the magenta ones.

I would be very surprised if the dichroic filters faded. As they do not rely on dyes, or pigments as the filter material, but thin film coatings that filter by interference, rather than absorbtion.
 

jerry lebens

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Sorry, I didn't say what I meant to say carefully enough - I didn't mean that colour enlargers are bad :

Mick - Very few uk colleges have combined colour/b&w darkrooms - the enlargers are rarely, if ever, used for both. In fact, at National Diploma level and below, very few colleges have colour darkrooms at all. However, many b&w darkrooms in these colleges are equipped with colour enlargers because they're marginally cheaper.

Ian - I should have said that absolute beginners find using multigrade filters easier than using colour filters. I agree that experienced photographers and a few technically savvy beginners find it easy to adapt to using colour enlargers.

I should have emphasised that I was coming at the problem as a teacher, used to teaching students who aren't always self motivated adults. Can you remember how it felt at school when you really wanted to do well at a subject but felt that you weren't clever enough? It probably wasn't your fault. It was the moment the teacher failed. He or she had probably started going too fast for you to keep up. As a teacher I try not to go too fast.

Using MGrade filters vectors out having to change exposure as you change contrast (until you hit the G3-G4 threshold and then all you have to do is remember to double the exposure). Using colour, you have to make an exposure change for every filter adjustment and it really does make the process more difficult to understand for some people. Each time you add complication to any task, even if it's tiny, a certain number of people will find it harder to understand. (Most of us find more than three consecutive instructions hard to remember, let alone understand).

When people 'get it', you can build on it. If they don't get it, the teacher failed.
 

Paul.

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Jerry, I thought that the point of useing the two filter, Magenta and yellow, in conjunction method was to keep the exposure time the same up to grade 4 and only required changeing for grade 5. Agreed if one used the single filter, either magenta or yellow, method then the exposure time would change for every grade, or have I missed the point again.

Regards Paul.
 

jerry lebens

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Hi Paul -

No you haven't missed the point. Using two filters is better... but (a) dichroic filters vary from enlarger to enlarger, so the system is rarely as accurate as I would like (b) colleges don't always display the two filter settings, only the one (and I've got too few brain cells left to waste my time memorising the settings on a system I prefer not to use) and (c) remember I'm talking about teaching to a varied range of students, some of whom begin to glaze over as soon you try to explain about these weird colour filter things are important ("what have they got to do with B&W Photography?...").
'A' Level and National Diploma students aren't always mature, self motivated, adults and they often have limited powers of concentration. But, just because they may not be the next Stephen Hawking, doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to enjoy, understand and eventually become motivated by photography? They may need to 'grow into it' more gradually with the help of supportive teaching - and supportive teaching involves smoothing technical things out for the students who aren't technically minded. (Smoothing doesn't mean ignoring - it just means leaving it until the time is right).

Some people say that you learn by making mistakes bit it isn't always true. Many students arrive in college having had bad experiences at school, where they've failed in a (British) system that's still geared to success for clever students. These 'failing' students desperately need success built into their learning because they've forgotten what it feels like - they've known nothing but failure in the past. If you give them too steep a learning curve they give up because they're used to failing, it's what they expect to do. Give them success and they're putty in your hands and, with a little effort, you can do wonders.

It's easy teaching clever students, it's the also-rans that need most work - but they can be the most rewarding.

The photo industry needs ordinary students just as much as it needs the brilliant ones. Do you want to go to a lab and have your films/prints developed by someone who enjoys their job, because they find it interesting and a challenge ; or, do you want to go to a lab that only employs students with degrees in photography but who feel the work is beneath them and boring? This is a real problem in the photo industry. We can't all be David Bailey (I'm not!) but we really need people who are well motivated at all levels.

Sorry, this has turned into a bit of a rant... But it's heart felt - I spent over ten years in 'special needs' education and my specialism was teaching design and technology to deaf students - I know a lot about how to teach people who aren't stupid but have difficulty learning (I've taught many extremely able students, too). I don't like to see teaching that decides who's stupid and not worth bothering with, before it even starts. If you understand colour filters straight away, that's cool. But, if you don't, do you want to be ignored because someone 'clever' decided that you're too stupid to bother with?

Phew!
Jerry
 

Paul.

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Hi Jerry,
No need to apologize for the rant, I have been there myself, told my daughter's headmaster he was an academic snob turning out mediocer clerks from kids who would of been first class plumbers. The school did not want her to take CDT at GCSE. because she was in too high a stream. She took CDT and is currently compleating a PHD in psycology, but can put a shelf up herself and no garage will rip her off.

You are right about different enlargers reacting differently, I recently changed mine and am struggling to replicate results I achieved with the old one with some of my negs. Am thinking I will renew magenta and yellow filters and lamp and start again from scratch. I have found a lamp change can have a dramatic effect on an enlarger.

Regards Paul.
 
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